Replacing pool pump - any recommendations?

[bbrock]

My Polaris does use a booster pump. So then what u r saying is that the booster pump will be enough that I wouldn't have to increase the RPM from the 1800-2100 setting for the panels?

The peak of my panels/VRV is approx 14-15 ft above the ground. I don't see how it could work to drain the solar if the VRV is not at the top. How could the VRV really be at a lower pt.?

Will u discuss surge protection more? What type of surge protector would be needed? I was searching TFP and it sounds as though I could get a protector at the pool electric panel which is nearby my pool. But it sounds as there are different types that vary according to if the absorb the surge or deflect it. I am confused on what would be needed, where it should be installed, and how it really would work.

 

[mas985]

My Polaris does use a booster pump. So then what u r saying is that the booster pump will be enough that I wouldn't have to increase the RPM from the 1800-2100 setting for the panels?

You might have to increase it a little. A pressure side cleaner requires high pressure but only a little flow rate. So it will steal some flow from the rest of the plumbing, just not a lot. When the booster is turned on, you will see a slight drop in pressure so the RPM will need to be upped a little to compensate for the drop in pressure IF it is lower than required.

The peak of my panels/VRV is approx 14-15 ft above the ground. I don't see how it could work to drain the solar if the VRV is not at the top. How could the VRV really be at a lower pt.?

When the pool pump is on, it creates pressure on the return side plumbing, including solar. However, when the pump shuts off, any plumbing that is above water level will have a slightly negative pressure (i.e. partial vacuum). The vacuum becomes larger with elevation so the vacuum is higher at the top of the panels than it is right above the pump. So the VRV can be placed anywhere that is above the water line and it will still function the same. You can convince yourself of this by running a little experiment. Take some clear tubing and submerge it completely in the pool remove all air from the tubing. Keep the ends of the tubing in the water but raise the center of the tubing out of the water. This now represents a primed solar system. Now, raise one of ends of the tubing so it is just above the water level. The tubing will drain from the air side up and over the raised tubing. This is a siphon. The same thing happens in the solar panels when the VRV is at a lower position. The water will drain from the VRV away, up and down.

Will u discuss surge protection more? What type of surge protector would be needed? I was searching TFP and it sounds as though I could get a protector at the pool electric panel which is nearby my pool. But it sounds as there are different types that vary according to if the absorb the surge or deflect it. I am confused on what would be needed, where it should be installed, and how it really would work.

Are you familiar with power strip surge protection? Whole house protection works the same way but at much higher amperage. It clamps the voltage so that any spikes will not damage electronic equipment. Spikes can be caused by not only lightning (pretty rare in our area) but also any power grid failures. We have had two transformer failures in our neighborhood and I am pretty sure they caused voltage spikes on the lines.

If it is more convenient to use one at the sub-panel, you can do that if you want. Here are a few suggestions:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...e+protector&sprefix=whole+house+surge,aps,291

 

[bbrock]

Tx for your help Mark.

So, I am reading the manuals for a couple of the discussed options. The EcoTech EZ VS motor replacement, and the MaxFlo 2302. Found this statement in the MaxFlo to be interesting and nice to know about:
"Motor drive includes built-in protection for high temperatures and voltage fluctuations. Drive is also designed to withstand temperatures below freezing without issue."

Sounds like surge protection may not be need with this pump.

One additional thing I thought about was that my solar controller and 3 way valve/solar actuator is an older Pentair Compool model. If I ever want my pump/motor to communicate w/ solar, perhaps I should really consider the Pentair Superflo. That way it could work with an upgrade to my solar controller. I noticed they have a "Pentair 521247 Compool to EasyTouch Upgrade Kit w/ Transformer," but I am don't see that it would work for an upgrade to my Compool Lx220. I will have to look at that more. If I went w/ the Hayward Maxflo and then ever want to upgrade my controller to the OnCommand, then I would have to most likely change out my 3 way valve/solar actuator, which seems like it would be the more costly route.

 

[mas985]

All actuators have the same interface and will work with any controller.

 

[bbrock]

Re: Ecotech EZ Variable Speed Motor & Hayward SuperPump (aka FrankenPump)

I have been researching the 1.5HP Ecotech VS motor to replace the motor on my Pentair Challenger SS 3/4HP (SF 1.67). Problem is I can't find any data/info anywhere regarding its energy efficiency at the various speeds. Plus, no data on it flow rate at various speeds. How on earth was ChuckDavis able to come up with the data below re: the flow rates?

I replaced the 2.5 HP impeller with the 1.5 HP impeller. (The seal plate and diffuser had to be replaced also, but they are the same ones I used with the original 1 HP impeller.)

The pump might be slightly quieter, but the main difference is that the resonant vibration that was making its way into the house is gone.

As expected, I have to run the motor 5%/172 RPM faster for equivalent performance (GPM, pressure at the filter) as with the 2.5 HP impeller. In my "summer" configuration, with the heat pump in-circuit, I now have to run at 70%/2415 RPM to get 20 GPM, which is the minimum for the heat pump. I haven't yet fired up the heat pump to know if I'll have to increase hours or speed to keep the pool at a wuss-certified 88 degrees.

I also lost "a little off the top." 2.5 HP impeller: 90%/3014 RPM=40 GPM, 25 PSI; 95%/3728 RPM=45 GPM, 28 PSI; 100%/3450 RPM=48 GPM, 31 PSI. 1.5 HP impeller: 95%/3278 RPM=39 GPM, 25 PSI; 100%/3450 RPM=41 GPM, 27 PSI.

Note - Moving the fill line connection for the Liquidator to between the filter and flowmeter solved that problem.

 

[mas985]

Re: Ecotech EZ Variable Speed Motor & Hayward SuperPump (aka FrankenPump)

The motor just sets the speed but it is really the wet end that defines the head curve and thus the flow rate for various plumbing setups and RPM. So at 3450 RPM it is no different than the single speed pump and since flow rate is proportional to RPM, you can just scale the flow rate by RPM. It doesn't matter what motor you use, the only thing that matters is the RPM and the original head curve.

 

[JasonLion]

If you read the text from ChuckDavis that you quoted you will note that he mentions having a flow meter. I strongly suspect that all of the various flow rates were simply read off of the flow meter.

 

[Chuck_Davis]

Yes, I do have a Blue-White flowmeter. I find it especially useful with the VS motor to make sure that I have exactly the minimum required flow for the heat pump.

Between the EcoTech EZ VS motor and a not-so-brutally-hot summer, our electric bill was over $600 less in 2014 than in 2013.

I am having trouble with the freeze guard. (I don't close my (North Carolina) pool in winter.) U.S. Motors is sending me a replacement circuit board but based on conversations with them I'm not overly hopeful that the problem will be solved. I suspect that the temperature sensor is not exposed to air and is too close to a big chunk of metal (the motor) that holds heat. I may end up installing an external controller using the EcoTech interface adapter.

 

[bbrock]

Tx Mark, Jason, Chuck.

And yes, I overlooked that the 1st time about the flowmeter.

I am grateful for all the help.

 

[bbrock]

Awhile back, when my home warranty was still valid, one of the pool techs (the one I had mentioned before who thought the check valve after the filter was unnecessary) had replaced the housing gasket (if that is what it's called; don't have time to look it up right now) b/c my pump was leaking from the bottom. Sure enough, that was not the right fix. When he had come out last week to replace the 3 way solar valve, he also replaced the motor shaft seal b/c I told him and showed him that the pump was still leaking and the most likely cause (as I learned here) was the motor shaft seal. Well, the leak is pretty much stopped, but there is still seepage. I have tightened down the surrounding outer fastener, but seepage remains.

Side note, the 3 way valve he replaced has almost completely stopped the flow up to my solar panels as I don't hear them draining anymore when I turn off my pump. Perhaps I am still getting some water up there do to the check valves, which I will also address when I replace my pump or motor. Also, he replaced the gasket on my strainer basket and put on some lube as I was getting a some water leakage there, but I still get a very trivial amount of leakage there when I turn off my pump.

This leads me to the fact that perhaps I am going about it wrong with considering replacing my motor with the EcoTech EZ VS 1.5 HP. Sure, the description of it reads great, and it would satisfy my needs, but it would still leave me with my wet end and potential problems. I calculate replacing the motor w/ the aforementioned vs. the Hayward Max-Flo 1.5 HP SP2302 would save me maybe $250-300. But, this may not be worth it if the wet end would still give me problems. Not too mention, while I can't calculate the exact energy savings in Kwh ea. speed runs at on the EcoTech 1.5, perhaps it would not be as energy efficient as the Hayward Max-Flo. Thus, even though I project I may save $250-300 upfront, I could make this up over some years by going with the Max-Flo vs. the EcoTech 1.5.

Input anyone? Tx.

 

[mas985]

The wet end on the MaxFlo is more efficient (~10%) than the Challenger because the MaxFlo is a med/low head pump while the Challenger is a high head pump. Couple that with the unknown reliability of the EcoTech, I would probably go with the MaxFlo if I had to choose between the two.

 

[bbrock]

Was out of town for a bit.

I think what you are saying is right Mark, to go with the Hayward Max-Flo. $250-300 is not significant enough in savings to justify going with the EcoTech, especially since it is unknown reliability. If I went with it, I am sure that my wet end will have problems either right then or later. Not to mention, as the Max-Flo is more efficient than the EcoTech, eventually I would make up that difference.

Thus, before I purchase the Max-Flo, one last question (could be more, you never know). Mark, you have broken down the head curves and all the analysis on the Max-Flo in this thread. I am very grateful for that. I just wanted to confirm that even if the Max-Flo is maxed at 3000 RPM, vs. the 3450 RPM that I am achieving now w/ my Challenger, there would not be any problems, right? Sounds like the GPM flow rates maxed would be similar to my Challenger, but the RPMs to achieve that would be different. I assume it is fine, as it simply reinforces that it can achieve similar GPM, just more efficiently though.

Oh yes, and lastly, are you + that Max-Flo wouldn't be a problem with my solar?

 

[bbrock]

Forgot to discuss the following. Since the Max-Flo SP2302VS would produce a comparable GPM flow rate at max speed 3000 RPM as my current pump, then I in essence may have the same suction/risk at the flat main drain that I have presently, right? While I had originally planned to go with the Ecostar, and I was concerned about its power and suction/risk at my flat main drain, I had planned on replacing my main drain cover with an anti-entrapment type. But, I would assume, this risk would be significantly reduced by replacing with the Max-Flo. Correct? Thus, while I would still plan on doing it eventually, there would be less urgency to replace the main drain cover if I go with the Max-Flo.

Also, on pg. 9 of the Hayward Max-Flo SP2302VS manual in section 4.3 Pipe Sizing Chart (http://www.hayward-pool.com/pdf/manuals/maxflo-vs-IS2302VSP.pdf), it states that if 2" pipe is used, the minimum straight pipe length for the suction side is 10." Should this be concern if I don't have that minimum length? Would that affect anything? Presently, I have about 4" from the point it makes a 90 degree turn to go into my pump. I really don't have a lot of room for a 10" pipe. Here's a pic:

Edit:
I just got off the phone w/ Rick, in tech support, at Hayward. I was asking him about the suction side pipe length and something I saw in the manual about a Max-Flo SP2302VSPND model. He stated that the minimum pipe length for the suction side pipe was to reduce the water turbulence coming off the 90 degree bend and improve pumping flow. I asked if this could affect the warranty if I go ahead and keep the short pipe length as this point b/c I don't really have the space for a 10" run, and he stated that it could affect the warranty if the pump/motor fails and it is deemed to be related to turbulent water/increased air flow into the pump d/t this short pipe length.

The other issue was reading something about a Max-Flo SP2302VSPND model. He said this was the No Display model. It relates to the fact that if I went with one of the approved automation controllers for the Max-Flo (Pro Logic, E-Command 4, OnCommand) that the Max-Flo SP2302VSPND model would be the one that could be fully controlled. The No Display refers to the user interface module not being needed on the pump. He stated that the Max-Flo SP2302VSP model (the one with the display/user interface module) could still work with the automation controller, but that the pump operations/programming would still take place through the user interface module on the pump, and the automatic controller would be used for any other features i.e. heater, solar. Now when I look at page 13 of the manual it clearly shows in the 5.2 heading "Hayward Control Wiring (SP2302VSPND only)."

These 2 paragraphs tell me a few things. If the pump fails or there is a warranty issue, it will be out of my hands and hopefully not denied over one thing or another not being up to their requirements. They could always find something it seems. So, I will just have to hope for the best. Secondly, the ND model thing is a bummer if I ever wanted to go with an automatic controller and not have to deal with touching the pump and keep everything centralized. Looks like that option is out b/c I would have to replace the pump yet again to that SP2302VSPND model.

 

[bbrock]

Figured I would make a separate reply for this. Also, when s/w Rick at Hayward, he thinks that the Max-Flo may not be appropriate for my system or thinks it may have to work too hard after I described my setup to him. By all means, I understand he has not seen the pictures and knows as much detail as has been discussed in this thread, and he even stated that it could possibly work, but just that to be safe I may need to at least consider the Hayward Tristar, which is the next VS model up from the Max-Flo and is a full rated high head pump. He agreed that the Ecostar is overkill for my application, and that most people that get the Ecostar really don't need something that powerful.

I am not sure if I should even give his opinion on the Tristar vs. Max-Flo that much weight in light of the short suction side pipe length that would have to be used. At one point Mark earlier in this thread, I read you stated:
"Anyway, if you still don't believe me that the MaxFlo would work, Pentair has a new SuperFlo VS (034201) which has an even higher head curve. That pump is the equivalent of a 1.5 full rated HP pump. Well over sized for your pool. It would produce about 63 GPM on the same plumbing as above so it is a bigger pump than your current pump but still a VS. The first gen SuperFlo (034200) would produce about the same flow rate as your current pump."
I wonder if this Superflo should be reconsidered. Problem is, I can't find many sites even selling this second gen. Superflo if I was going to reconsider it.

 

[mas985]

I was told by many a pool tech that a 1/2 HP pump would NEVER work with solar on a two story roof and yet it does. I did the calculations and convinced myself that it would work just fine. And as a reminder, my pump is smaller (produces less flow rate) than all the pumps you are considering and my solar is considerably higher as well. That alone should be enough to convince you. If I was in your situation, I would have no problem going with the MaxFlo VS. I have even considered doing so when my current pump fails. But it is your decision so you should be comfortable with whatever decision you make.

 

[bbrock]

Tx Mark for reply.

Should I give any consideration to that whole suction side minimum pipe length for the Max-Flo VS?

 

[mas985]

I believe that is a hold over from the water distribution industry where the pipe is directly connected to the pump inlet. I don't believe the same criteria should be used for pumps with a pump basket because the pump basket sits between the pipe and the inlet and will create it's own turbulence which will have far more impact than the turbulence caused by a pipe up stream. Plus if you look through the many pictures of plumbing setups on this forum, you will see that very few setups ad hear to this rule without any consequence at all so that pretty much proves my point.

However, since it is recommended in the manual, the pump manufacture could use it as an excuse not honor the warranty. So if you can do it easily, I would say go ahead but if it requires a lot extra plumbing and bends, then you could easily argue that is worse than not having the long pipe.

 

[bbrock]

Just got some more measurements. There is no way I could have a 10" run of pipe off the suction inlet and fit the Max-Flo pump there. I could have a shorter run of pipe though, or just keep it so that right when it comes up it turns and goes into my pump/strainer basket. If the warranty may or may not be honored due to this, then would it really even matter to have any extra straight run of pipe before the pump/strainer basket, or should I just leave as is? This question is more so related to any performance differences between having some extra pipe for a straight run (even if 5-7") vs. none like I currently have.

You had shared/calculated before Mark that the Max-Flo "at max RPM 3000 would filter 76 GPM w/out solar, and 55 GPM w/solar. That is very comparable to my current Pentair at 75 GPM w/out solar and 59 GPM w/solar." I assume those numbers are based on my system as it is, correct? This info about not having any straight length of pipe before my pump was not shared prior to you sharing these flow rates.

Also, I have begun considering the electrical aspect, as Hayward (and the Pentair Superflo per their manual) require that the pump is wired directly to the panel on its own GFI. I believe they even stated that it can't share anything on that line and it needs to be a straight shot into the panel. Here are some pics of my setup currently.

Can I get rid of the mech. timer on the left, which is controlling my pump currently, and also the replace that "switch on/off box" directly beneath it with a GFI, and this would then be wired to go into the panel in the middle (hopefully that made sense)?

Or, can I wire the pump to this GFI outlet, which is directly tied into my main panel? I question this as it would be a shared GFI outlet. The line that leaves the GFI outlet controls some lighting in my garden area. BTW, the toggle box/switch that my index finger is pointing to is for the pool light.

Just another pic of that GFI outlet.

Basically, I am not sure how it could satisfy this "directly wired to the panel" requirement.

 

[mas985]

Having the 10" of pipe before the pump will not change the performance in any meaningful way.

Yes, you can get rid of the timer and the switch. If you have to cut power to the pump, you can just use the breaker. But I would use a GFI breaker instead of the outlet or anything else.

 

[bbrock]

Before I get all the parts, I called this other pool company previously that I was saving for a rainy day. Maybe you heard of them work, Labella's pool service. From having met them previously, and discussing stuff with them multiple times, they seen the most competent. But after this morning's call, I'm not sure.

I was wanting to get a quote for the pump replacement, GFI installation, and check valve replacement. I told him that I have a check valve after the filter, and one after coming from the solar. At that, the guy had stated that there needs to be a check valve between the pump and the filter to prevent backflow into the pump. I stated that that is what the check valve after the filter would do. But, he disagreed and said that the valve after the filter was not really necessary. Is a check valve necessary between the pump and the filter?