Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: what is the definition of fresh water ?

  1. Back To Top    #1

    what is the definition of fresh water ?

    We just had a light niche inspection fail because the inspector read on 3ms data sheet that the compound is for fresh pools and fountains only. I have spoken to the head inspector and he stands by his field inspectors opinion that the 3m product is not suitable. SCP distributors cannot find an approved salt water potting compound and have gone up the ladder in 3m with no one that can answer the question.

    I noticed in another thread that Jason Lion said the level of salt 3000 ppm in swimming pools is still considered fresh water but according to Wikipedia fresh water is considered to be less than 500 ppm. Some other sources say its 1000 ppm.

    So my question is, where do i find a definition of fresh water from an authority that i could quote to the inspection department?

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    37,389

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    Well, this is interesting. I would consider a SWG pool a fresh water pool. The ocean has 10x more salt in it. Too bad my opinion does not matter
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

  3. Back To Top    #3
    Mod Squad JVTrain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Central Minnesota
    Posts
    5,079

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    Even Underwriter Laboratories only recognizes potting compounds as tested in freshwater pools and fountains. There is no mention of salt water installation. If so, no one in the country should be able to have a light niche in a salt water pool. I wonder how so many do.

    Fresh water < 500 ppm
    Brackish water 500 - 35000 ppm
    Saline (salt) water 35000 - 50000 ppm
    Brine water 50000+ ppm

    Tell them the water is brackish, not salt water... but I doubt they will care.
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
    40x20 Pool: 32K Gallons * Vinyl * Bleach Chlorination * Hayward S270T Sand Filter * Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP * Teledyne/Laars Heater * AquaVac Tigershark * TF-100 w/ SpeedStir
    Isolated Spa - 345 Gallons

  4. Back To Top    #4
    Patrick_B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Midland TX
    Posts
    15,001

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    I would contact 3M myself and get some documentation from them stating it will be suitable. I don't know how hard the distributor if working it, but I would pursue it on my own to be sure. I know you shouldn't have to take care of this, but it may drag on if you don't. It sounds like your inspectors are rediculously picking nits and IMO, unreasonable beyond all logic. As a final option, maybe you can "change your mind" for now, and go non salt.
    TFP Moderator
    Essential Links:
    ABC's Of Pool Chemistry, Test Kits, SLAM Your Pool
    28K Gal IG FreeForm, CLI Quartz, Pentair 36"SF & VS Pump, Dolphin M5, Rheem

  5. Back To Top    #5

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    the problem is in the language 3m uses " fresh pools and fountains only" . We have been using this same compound for 12 years in 17 different counties and this is the first time an inspector has turned it down. 3m lobbied for the code change so they could monopolize the market and they have successfully done that but no one there will answer my inquiry about what i should do.

    I had the pool scheduled for plaster Monday and now am in the middle of a snafu with no apparent solution.

    - - - Updated - - -

    i have talked to the customer about a marginally fraudulent solution such as removing the swcg cell and salt from the site but they want to be legit and i understand them feeling that way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    3m is saying it was tested for salt but never listed.

  6. Back To Top    #6
    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    37,389

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    I am not sure how "fraudulent" that would be. For at least the first 30 days you can not add salt anyway, so it is a freshwater pool. I am not sure what they want to be "legit" about ... I am not sure this would even be a code violation.

    The whole situation is just dumb. I guess the 10,000s of us with SWG pools with pool lights are in "violation"
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    3m is saying they have never had this problem come up before. Now there are 3 pools that have been turned down the last 3 days in this county. I find it very hard to believe that this has never been an issue before now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    as a contractor, i cant knowingly install a product that doesn't meet code, nor can the electrician.

  8. Back To Top    #8

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    There doesn't seem to be a potting compound that is approved for a salt water pool as per SCP and 3M. If anyone knows of one I would sure like the name of it.

  9. Back To Top    #9
    Mod Squad JVTrain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Central Minnesota
    Posts
    5,079

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    So your local inspectors are banning salt water chlorine generators from pools in your area, in an indirect manner. Shouldn't these inspectors who are handing down judgement have enough knowledge of codes and the products associated with the code to recommend another material? My hunch is that they cannot as one does not exist. If one did exist and this were indeed a widespread problem for inspection approval, certainly the manufacturer would be shouting it from the rooftops based on the popularity and prevalence of SWCG systems.
    Joel - TFP Moderator - Minnesota - **Become a TFP Supporter!** Helpful Links: ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry - SLAM Procedure - Chlorine/CYA Chart
    40x20 Pool: 32K Gallons * Vinyl * Bleach Chlorination * Hayward S270T Sand Filter * Pentair SuperFlo 1 HP * Teledyne/Laars Heater * AquaVac Tigershark * TF-100 w/ SpeedStir
    Isolated Spa - 345 Gallons

  10. Back To Top    #10
    Killer95Stang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Sunny SoCal
    Posts
    570

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    A salt water pool is not a salt water pool until you add salt. Take off the generator until you come up with a solution, then install it at a later date. Add that into the contract that you will fix the issue at a later date and they should be satisfied. You aren't the only person building pools in NC, so its not like other people won't have the same issue. Also, that inspector is a douchebag... does he have a brother that works as an inspector in San Dimas, CA?
    Pool done!! (backyard = work in progress) 32' x 19' inground freeform with 7' spa, baja step w/ (2) bubblers, stonescapes mini pebble finish, rock waterfall feature, 12" raised bond beam, Intelliflo VS, Whisperflo feature pump, (3) 5G Color LED's, FNS + DE 60, 400K Master Temp, Easytouch 8 w/ remote, Intellichlor IC40, Vision Classic Ceramic Kamado smoker, Margaritaville DM1000!!! Party Coming Soon!!
    TF-100 Test Kit w/ Speedstir

  11. Back To Top    #11


    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Bakersfield, CA
    Posts
    155

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    I recommend you go talk to one of the engineers in the County Building Dept that issued the pool permit. With any luck they'll understand the problem and refer it up to the Head of the Bldg Dept. Usually the Inspectors report to him/her.

    If that doesn't work call, or preferably have the homeowner(s) call their local County representative or Mayor. A call from the Mayor to the Bldg Dept should sort it out in no time.
    Cheers, Peter
    20,000 gal, 52'x17' kidney shaped IG, Pebble Tec, IntelliPro P6E6VS4H-209L pump. Intellichlor IC40 SWG.
    300 sf Sta-Rite System 3 cartridge filter. Poolvergnuegen 4-wheel suction pool cleaner. TF-100 test kit.

  12. Back To Top    #12
    gtemkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    738

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    The data sheet for 3M 2135 states it is meant to protect from corrosion of "fresh swimming pool water". I take that to mean water which is not yet balanced and therefor potentially more corrosive. It does not say fresh water. It's a technicality, but it's a technicality that may make a difference.


    [edit] I just read UL's general information page on potting compounds and there it does say "salt-free" water.
    21K gal 16' x 40' in-ground pool built 1959, old school with Jacuzzi bronze pump, American Products 24" Sand Filter & Americana Multiport valve, Jandy Lite2 millivolt heater, Coverstar cover, and classic Kreepy Krauly.

  13. Back To Top    #13
    gtemkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    738

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    Since there's salt in EVERY pool, there is not a single pool in the US that is "salt-free". "Salt-free" are the exact words used in UL's Online Certifications Directory for WCRY.GuideInfo Potting Compounds, which is the header classification for the E130394 listing. Suggest you get an copy of UL676A, which is the UL standards document for the compound and find out exactly what that document defines as "salt-free". If they create a water sample starting from distilled water, I'd suggest there are thousands of pool owners who would fill out their online comment form telling them how un-representative their test is of real life conditions and demand they change their documents. This is clearly a UL problem.
    21K gal 16' x 40' in-ground pool built 1959, old school with Jacuzzi bronze pump, American Products 24" Sand Filter & Americana Multiport valve, Jandy Lite2 millivolt heater, Coverstar cover, and classic Kreepy Krauly.

  14. Back To Top    #14
    gtemkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    738

    Re: what is the definition of fresh water ?

    One more interpretation. The SCOPE of UL676A states:

    POTTING COMPOUNDS FOR SWIMMING POOL, FOUNTAIN, AND SPA EQUIPMENT

    1 Scope
    1.1 This outline covers compounds intended to be used to encapsulate grounding and bonding conductor splices or terminations in swimming pool, spa, or fountain equipment such as fixtures, fixture housings, and junction boxes where the splices or terminations may be exposed to salt-free swimming pool or fountain water and sunlight for varying lengths of time, including continuous exposure. This outline also covers potting compounds used to fill underwater junction boxes.

    I read it as saying the potting material MAY be used for salt-free applications, however it does not exclude it's use in for salt applications. If the Scope wanted to prevent people from using it in salt water pools, it would have stated "shall not be used in salt water swimming pools".
    21K gal 16' x 40' in-ground pool built 1959, old school with Jacuzzi bronze pump, American Products 24" Sand Filter & Americana Multiport valve, Jandy Lite2 millivolt heater, Coverstar cover, and classic Kreepy Krauly.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •