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Thread: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

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    Daf-Tekno's Avatar
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    'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    Hi TFPeople,

    My old chemical regime used a liquid called Spa Life 'Secure' (replaced with Aqua 'Cop-Out') on a weekly basis.

    The bottle says, "For the prevention of metal stains and scale formation".

    How does the TFP / BBB system address similar stain / scale prevention?
    Or is it the case that, if the water is balanced as specified in aforementioned systems, then such staining / scaling simply won't occur..?

    I'm pretty sure that you guys will have an excellent reason negating the need for this ancillary substance.
    My curiosity is keen to hear what it is.

    With the gaining of such knowledge, my mind grows ever more aligned to the Ways of the TFP...

    Regards - D
    Last edited by Daf-Tekno; 10-24-2014 at 07:17 PM. Reason: typo
    Jacuzzi J480 (2008) 1700 litres, Balboa ozonator, Delta EZ-18-120 UV lamp via custom 6-way 2-tier timer solenoid array, 2 x Waterway 4HP main pumps,
    1 x Aqua-Flow 1/15 HP circ pump, ChlorMaker IL SWG, SmartSeal + Roxul skirting insulation, 8' x 8' ThermoFloat Spa blanket, 100" x 100" Gator coverall

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    Re: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    The main point is to know if you have a potential metals problem, and don't use a metal stain preventer if you don't have a metal problem in the first place. If you do have a problem, we recommend sequestrants based on HEDP, phosphonic acid, or phosphonic acid derivatives. If you have never had a metals problem, and don't have iron stains in your kitchen sink, then assume you don't have a metal problem, and don't bother with the stain preventer.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    TFP Guide

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    Re: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    Also, keep your ph down, high ph will cause metals to come out of suspension.

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    Daf-Tekno's Avatar
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    Re: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    Hi guys,

    Thanks for the replies.

    Is there any easy way to confirm if I have a metal problem or not..?
    Our sink is usually so dirty from washing up, I can't really tell if it's stained from the water supply!

    Thanks - D
    Jacuzzi J480 (2008) 1700 litres, Balboa ozonator, Delta EZ-18-120 UV lamp via custom 6-way 2-tier timer solenoid array, 2 x Waterway 4HP main pumps,
    1 x Aqua-Flow 1/15 HP circ pump, ChlorMaker IL SWG, SmartSeal + Roxul skirting insulation, 8' x 8' ThermoFloat Spa blanket, 100" x 100" Gator coverall

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    Re: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    You can purchase an iron test Taylor K-1716 or you can take a sample to a pool store to test for iron.

    If you test for anything over .3 ppm, that can be enough to cause staining. Less than that, you have no need for a sequestrant.
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
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    Daf-Tekno's Avatar
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    Re: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    Calgary water has the following levels of metals:

    Aluminum: mg/L 0.0189-0.2889
    Arsenic: mg/L <0.0005-0.0005
    Barium mg/L 0.0306-0.0833
    Cadmium: mg/L <0.0005
    Calcium: mg/L 35-69
    Free Chlorine residual: mg/L 0.75-1.36
    Chromium: mg/L <0.0005-0.0021
    Copper: mg/L <0.0005-0.0017
    Fluoride: mg/L <0.06-0.28
    Iron: mg/L <0.050
    Lead: mg/L <0.0005
    Magnesium: mg/L 10-19
    Manganese mg/L <0.0005-0.0143
    Mercury: mg/L <0.00005
    Nickel: mg/L <0.0005-0.0017
    Nitrate as Nitrogen mg/L 0.042-0.183
    Nitrite as Nitrogen: mg/L <0.0044-0.0080
    Potassium: mg/L 0.35-1.54
    Sodium: mg/L 1.4-14.4
    Sulfate: mg/L 36-124
    Zinc: mg/L <0.0030-0.0123

    Can these levels be classed as 'OK' / 'good' / not required to need any stain preventer / sequestrants?

    (Full analysis here)
    http://www.calgary.ca/UEP/Water/Page...-Parameters.as

    Thank you.
    Regards - D
    Last edited by Daf-Tekno; 11-07-2014 at 01:53 AM. Reason: Accidental smiley
    Jacuzzi J480 (2008) 1700 litres, Balboa ozonator, Delta EZ-18-120 UV lamp via custom 6-way 2-tier timer solenoid array, 2 x Waterway 4HP main pumps,
    1 x Aqua-Flow 1/15 HP circ pump, ChlorMaker IL SWG, SmartSeal + Roxul skirting insulation, 8' x 8' ThermoFloat Spa blanket, 100" x 100" Gator coverall

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    Re: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    The analysis of the water supplier may provide guidance, but a test of YOUR pool water is required. Remember, even if a level is low in the fill water you may end up with higher levels due to evaporation (the water goes away, the metals/minerals stay behind and build up) or even equipment failure such as a heater with copper pipes leaching copper into the water due to unbalanced water. Metals in the water can come from the strangest places, not necessarily always the fill water.

    Nothing beats a test of YOUR water.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    In the east coast of Canada we have a lot of issues with Metal Stains. Some walk in white steps are actually disgusting, when I toss a Vit C tablet on them, clients go OMG...no way .

    Where you are just dealing with a spa, I doubt you will see much staining. I didn't on my spa, but my pool always.

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    Daf-Tekno's Avatar
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    Re: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    Thanks for the insights.

    None of my local Spa stores test for metals.
    I'll need to buy a Taylor test kit, but it sounds like I'd have to buy one for each metal (i.e. Taylor test kit K-1716 for just Iron).
    As I don't know which metals are of significant worry, this makes it a bit tricky.

    Would it be OK to test for just Iron in this case?
    Or does anyone make a multiple metal test kit?

    Thanks - D
    Jacuzzi J480 (2008) 1700 litres, Balboa ozonator, Delta EZ-18-120 UV lamp via custom 6-way 2-tier timer solenoid array, 2 x Waterway 4HP main pumps,
    1 x Aqua-Flow 1/15 HP circ pump, ChlorMaker IL SWG, SmartSeal + Roxul skirting insulation, 8' x 8' ThermoFloat Spa blanket, 100" x 100" Gator coverall

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    Daf-Tekno's Avatar
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    Re: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    Jason Lion says:
    "...we recommend sequestrants based on HEDP, phosphonic acid, or phosphonic acid derivatives..."

    For the life of me, I can't find anything related to any of these references for sale in Canada.

    If anyone has any ideas of how / where to find them North of the border, or pseudonyms they may possess, I'd love to know!

    Thanks - D
    Jacuzzi J480 (2008) 1700 litres, Balboa ozonator, Delta EZ-18-120 UV lamp via custom 6-way 2-tier timer solenoid array, 2 x Waterway 4HP main pumps,
    1 x Aqua-Flow 1/15 HP circ pump, ChlorMaker IL SWG, SmartSeal + Roxul skirting insulation, 8' x 8' ThermoFloat Spa blanket, 100" x 100" Gator coverall

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    TFP Guide

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    Re: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    I think testing for metals in a spa isn't necessary. Your acrylic will not show it, it could appear on jets if they have some metal...maybe. You can't get any of the Jacks products in Canada I believe. Any stain n scale fighter for a spa is what I would look for if you are concerned.

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    Swampwoman's Avatar
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    Re: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    Can you get Metal Magic in Canada? Its produced by Haviland in Michigan.

    But I agree...I have well water that's heavy in metals and in the hot tub any ole stain n scale product seems to work fine. It's the pool that requires a little more fussing.
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    Re: 'Secure' / 'Stain-n-Scale' / 'Cop-Out': BBB..?

    Nope, sadly a lot of company's don't sell in Canada. We have similar products with different names. What I find truly weird in this industry is companies rarely list on labels what is contained. Pucks, chlorine products and some have to show ingredients, but these "other" ones just get a brand name. It's tough discerning what is what unless you search the MDS info.

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