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Thread: AA Treatment question(s)

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    AA Treatment question(s)

    OK, so as a few of you know, I've had some dark stains of sort on the sides & bottom most of summer -- even though I've maintained really great numbers ! I did the Vitamin C "test" on a couple of areas, and in a matter of seconds it lightened. Sooooo it appears I have some metal staining occurring.

    Given that, I am going fwd with the AA treatment as posted in this forum. I have 3.5 lbs of STAIN FREE AA on the way. So can someone give me a sanity check on my plan.

    - I'm waiting to start this AA treatment until we close for the winter, probably in about 2 weeks - and the water temp drops closer to 60 degrees.
    - I'll drop my PH down to around 7.0 using MA (it currently is around 7.6)
    - I'll add 3 lbs of STAIN FREE & circulate (actually, just turn on Filter & let it run for an hour or 2 - it's a CART type).
    - I'll add some Sequestrant (what brand or type????)
    - Run filter another 24/7
    - Start to Rebalance water

    Do I have that right?

    Final question(s):

    - From here fwd, should I do a weekly maintenance for Metals? Metal Jack? Recommendation?
    - Previous owner had some metal Rod type thing that was in the filter basket - presumably some metal-eliminating thing. Should I consider putting that back in?
    - Probably should get a Metal Test done of our water ? Leslie's pools do that? Where/How ?

    Thanks in advance
    30,000 Gal FIBER GLASS (over Gunite Plaster) Pool, Dolphin Nautilus PLUS Robot, (2) Cartridge Filter System (old), 1/2 HP Pump, Full Sun, Solar Heated, TF-100 Test Kit.

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    Shirker's Avatar
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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    Was the rod some sort of sacrificial anode?
    TF-100 | 13.6k gal (24' Round) AG | Chlorine | Sand Filter | Two Speed Motor | Installed June 2014 | Last Opened April 24 2016

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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    lol ... No, I BELIEVE the Pool Service add it, presumably for metals in the water? It's about 8 inches long, hollow, and has some green stains on it ...
    30,000 Gal FIBER GLASS (over Gunite Plaster) Pool, Dolphin Nautilus PLUS Robot, (2) Cartridge Filter System (old), 1/2 HP Pump, Full Sun, Solar Heated, TF-100 Test Kit.

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    Melt In The Sun's Avatar
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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    I have never heard of such a thing. can you post a photo?
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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    Here ya go ... (I removed this 2 years ago when we purchased the property).

    update: Also, I called Leslie Pools ... I am now more confused than ever. They told me that "if the Vitamin C pills removed the stain, it is ORGANIC (Algae)" ... what I read HERE in this forum is that it is METALLIC . !!!!! Which is it?

    6A2C4516.jpg
    30,000 Gal FIBER GLASS (over Gunite Plaster) Pool, Dolphin Nautilus PLUS Robot, (2) Cartridge Filter System (old), 1/2 HP Pump, Full Sun, Solar Heated, TF-100 Test Kit.

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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    Lol algae, clearly don't call that pool store ever again!

    If Vit C removed it is most assuredly metal staining.

    I have no idea what that anode is? Possibly copper for some weird algae inhibitor?

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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    I truly believe it is a Anode of some sort that specifically is SUPPOSED to eliminate certain metals ... I read something here on this forum a couple of years ago about them - and that we should REMOVE them as they cause more issues than they solve ... now I'm questioning that ...
    30,000 Gal FIBER GLASS (over Gunite Plaster) Pool, Dolphin Nautilus PLUS Robot, (2) Cartridge Filter System (old), 1/2 HP Pump, Full Sun, Solar Heated, TF-100 Test Kit.

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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    If it's helpful, I do not believe there is a successful sacrificial anode on the market for pools. You might be able to purchase several but I would question their value.
    Dave S.
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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    OK, so back to my ORIGINAL question : do I have that procedure correct in trying to get this under control? And as far as that Metal Anode thingy, like I said, I removed it based on comments here about 2 years ago. Our approach has always been "less into the pool is better" .. hence trying to adhere to Bleach-only of BBB. I'm starting to think that BBB approach is NOT sufficient, especially when it comes to Metals & staining. I probably need to consider some ongoing maintenance of adding some anti-metal product (Magic Jack??) The new pool surface is only 18 months old and this stain really bothers me.
    30,000 Gal FIBER GLASS (over Gunite Plaster) Pool, Dolphin Nautilus PLUS Robot, (2) Cartridge Filter System (old), 1/2 HP Pump, Full Sun, Solar Heated, TF-100 Test Kit.

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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    In fact, IMO, if you adhere to BBB, keep your cya low and ph around 7.4, you will then have chlorine levels around 2-5 and will never get a bloom. Not having issues means no slam would be needed and you won't have metals come out of suspension. High PH or high chlorine cause metals to stain. Get the staining cleared up and then possibly use a metal sequester as you feel is needed.

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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    Thanks for that reply. I really had no idea High Chlorine could cause staining. Since starting/joining BBB, I've always tried to maintain a 45-50 CYA and a 5-6 Chlorine -- believing higher Chlorine & matching CYA was best. Also, when leaving on a week vacation, I've always just bumped up my chlorine by adding 4 Gallons of Liquid 12.5% Bleach - just so there was excess there for the week and I wouldn't be at 0 when returning. Maybe THAT process adds to the 'staining' ????? Anyway, I now have the STAIN FREE on hand and plan to go thru the AA Treatment in a couple of weeks once the pool temp drops & we close it. I guess after THAT I'll rethink my maintenance levels - and bring things down a little; and maybe add some metal sequestrant periodically.
    30,000 Gal FIBER GLASS (over Gunite Plaster) Pool, Dolphin Nautilus PLUS Robot, (2) Cartridge Filter System (old), 1/2 HP Pump, Full Sun, Solar Heated, TF-100 Test Kit.

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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    To be clear, it is NOT the high chlorine level that causes the staining; it is the high pH level that results from increasing FC using a hypochlorite source of chlorine. This post gives some examples of how much the pH rises when increasing the FC level using a hypochlorite source of chlorine. Though the pH will drop back down when the FC level drops (i.e. when the chlorine is used/consumed), the pH is high at least as long as the FC remains high if no pH chemical adjustment is made.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    Hi Cody. Getting back to your original questions
    - I'll drop my PH down to around 7.0 using MA (it currently is around 7.6)
    - I'll add 3 lbs of STAIN FREE & circulate (actually, just turn on Filter & let it run for an hour or 2 - it's a CART type).
    - I'll add some Sequestrant (what brand or type????)
    - Run filter another 24/7
    - Start to Rebalance water

    Do I have that right?

    Final question(s):

    - From here fwd, should I do a weekly maintenance for Metals? Metal Jack? Recommendation?
    - Previous owner had some metal Rod type thing that was in the filter basket - presumably some metal-eliminating thing. Should I consider putting that back in?
    First off, YES to the metal sequestrant, and in response to what kind, TFP typically recommends Jack's Magic or Metal Magic (proteam). My new fav this year is Metal Magic...I've had terrific luck with it for stains as well and haven't had to do the AA treatment this year as a result

    Secondly, you ALSO usually want to drop your chlorine for AA treatment (AA and chlorine will fight each other and you instead want the AA to be fighting the stains ) As such, its recommended to add Polyquat 60 to avoid a subsequent outbreak of algae....less likely at cooler water temps but still possible. Just s you know, bringing the chlorine back up...gently to avoid oxidizing more metals...is a bit f a PITA that requires periodic oversite.

    The other thing to note, to which I can attest, is that AA takes considerably longer to work in cold water. So you may find that you need to leave it longer than you plan.

    To avoid future staining, indeed you will want to add, and then maintain either the type of Jack's for your pool finish or Metal Magic. These sequestrants wear off over time. I generally add a maintenance dose weekly.

    For testing metals, there are products you can buy to test yourself, eg Lamotte InstaTest for Copper and Iron, but its also important to understand that with sequestrant in, you don't always get a reliable read. But the pool store isn't likely to be any more reliable If you have staining and it responds to vit c, you have metal, whether the test agrees or not

    Lastly, if you can, try to identify the source of metal. Eg. Are you on a well? Did someone fertilize your yard (iron)? Has the prior owner used some kind of metal "ionizer" sanitation system or do any of the pool products you've used have copper as an ingredient?

    Once you can narrow down the source, you have a better idea of how vigilant you'll need to be to prevent staining. Eg. If you're on well like me, you'll get into the habit of buying metal magic by the case and filtering your fill water and keeping your ph lower (eg 7.2-7.4) on a regular basis.

    Then again, maybe the source of the metal was that anode in the filter basket and maybe once you've removed the stain and sequestered the metal, you'll be golden
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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    Thanks for the detailed response.

    - Our water source is Public water (EBMUD - SF BAY AREA). I checked their water analysis & like most/all public water, there are small amounts of Copper, Aluminum, Iron, etc ...
    - I removed that ANODE device 2 years ago. The pool has since been emptied & refilled (Jan 2013) & I never put that ANODE back in.
    - I'll pick up some of that Jack's or ProTeam & start a weekly dosage
    - I need to rethink my Chlorine & PH levels, clearly ... I thought I was doing great with a CYA/45, CL/5.0-6.0, and PH/7.5-7.6 ... at least that's what I was hearing HERE when I posted my numbers from time to time.

    Finally, I'll probably start the AA process in the next week while the water temp is still in the upper 70's. (It's currently 85, and dropping daily)

    Thanks again.
    30,000 Gal FIBER GLASS (over Gunite Plaster) Pool, Dolphin Nautilus PLUS Robot, (2) Cartridge Filter System (old), 1/2 HP Pump, Full Sun, Solar Heated, TF-100 Test Kit.

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    Swampwoman's Avatar
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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    Cody, your numbers/balance do sound correct to me so I would not blame the staining on them whatsoever. Likely you just need sequestrate to deal with trace amounts in water source.

    (Eg. You're better off keeping the correct FC...as you are...but maybe keeping ph between 7.2-7.4...just slightly lower and only because you have metals.)

    (Completely coincidental but I stayed in a hotel in SF two weeks back where I noticed they had very faint iron staining in their older, courtyard pool. Was kinda surprised BC they're obviously on city water...but maybe your city water is harder than what we see in these parts )
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    Re: AA Treatment question(s)

    I battled metals all summer. Apparently the previous owners were using an Algaecide that contained metals.. I did 2 AA treatments. I sequestered with Sparkle Conquest first which clouded my water for 3 weeks, raised FC & PH gradually and metals came back. Did AA again, used jacks for 2 weeks, then Metal Majic. Neither helped. I switched to metal Klear sequestrant dosing once a week and haven't had a problem since. I also keep my FC and ph on the lower side now. Sure wish that using the AA was the only thing Ya had to do because the pool looks wonderful afterwards. Unfortunately have to keep those metals sequestered ... Good luck.
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