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Thread: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

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    swoopman's Avatar
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    Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    After finding TFP we learned that our 1st step towards a TFP would be a drain and fill to reduce CYA level of 160.

    We are nearing the end of the drain and fill and our estimate based on using the Pool Fill Dilution Calculator and backing in to numbers using the Pool Calculator is that the CYA will be in the 60 to 70 range once the fill is completed. We are completing the last of the fill with a hose (well water, no metal issues). Right now we can NOT run pump since the water is not high enough yet. Should be there late today or tomorrow morning.

    In the meantime we have been doing the "witch's cauldron" (read that from another poster and it's funny) method of water mixing - running a submersible pump back into the pool and lots of brushing.

    We have a TF-100 kit and will be running a full set of numbers tomorrow once we can run the pump.

    I did a diluted FAS/DPD test (to save on reagents) on the left over pool water after the drain (FC 5) and also tested the fill water that was delivered (FC 3.75). (Diluted test = 10ml water sample + 15 ml filtered water mixed, use 10ml of mixed water sample and multiply each drop by 1.25)

    I used the Taylor K-1000 to test pH and both were at 8.

    During the fill I did add some 8.25% bleach. Right now the FC is too high to accurately test pH. I'm using the K-1000 to get an idea of where the FC levels are at since 1) we'll need FAS/DPD for upcoming SLAM 2) since pump is not running the water isn't thoroughly mixed 3) Since we're not swimming or SLAMming accuracy doesn't seem critical. Based on the colors from these tests I would guesstimate we got the FC up to about 15 yesterday evening and it is down to about 10 this morning.

    This is based on JasonLion post - "The OTO test is normally used to measure TC levels between 0 and 5. You can, however, use this test to get a vague idea of extremely high TC levels. If the sample turns a particularly vivid yellow the TC level is between 5 and 15, light orange is between 10 and 20, dark orange is between 15 and 30, and brown is 30 or higher."

    As expected we are loosing FC to algae.

    All this to get to my question (thanks for hanging in there) - should we let the FC drift down so we can accurately measure and adjust pH before the SLAM or should we just start the SLAM once we have enough water to run the pump?

    Thanks!
    TF-100 Test Kit
    22,000 gallon, 20x40 kidney-shape IG plaster pool built in 1986
    Nautilus NS-36 DE filter, Hayward Self Prime Super Pump 1HP
    Polaris Automatic Pool Cleaner, PB4-60 3/4 HP pump

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP

    Replies in red.
    Quote Originally Posted by swoopman View Post
    I did a diluted FAS/DPD test (to save on reagents) on the left over pool water after the drain (FC 5) and also tested the fill water that was delivered (FC 3.75). (Diluted test = 10ml water sample + 15 ml filtered water mixed, use 10ml of mixed water sample and multiply each drop by 1.25)

    I'm assuming your filtered water is tap water, in which case it is chlorinated, skewing your results.

    I used the Taylor K-1000 to test pH and both were at 8.

    During the fill I did add some 8.25% bleach. Right now the FC is too high to accurately test pH. I'm using the K-1000 to get an idea of where the FC levels are at since 1) we'll need FAS/DPD for upcoming SLAM 2) since pump is not running the water isn't thoroughly mixed 3) Since we're not swimming or SLAMming accuracy doesn't seem critical. Based on the colors from these tests I would guesstimate we got the FC up to about 15 yesterday evening and it is down to about 10 this morning.

    This is based on JasonLion post - "The OTO test is normally used to measure TC levels between 0 and 5. You can, however, use this test to get a vague idea of extremely high TC levels. If the sample turns a particularly vivid yellow the TC level is between 5 and 15, light orange is between 10 and 20, dark orange is between 15 and 30, and brown is 30 or higher."

    As expected we are loosing FC to algae.

    All this to get to my question (thanks for hanging in there) - should we let the FC drift down so we can accurately measure and adjust pH before the SLAM or should we just start the SLAM once we have enough water to run the pump?

    Yes, let the pH drift down and adjust before SLAM.

    Thanks!

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    Smykowski's Avatar
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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP

    I would let FC drop to test and adjust the pH before SLAMing.

    Also, if you want an easier way for the FAS-DPD test, just use 5mL instead of 10, then multiply each drop by 1.0. You lose a little precision, so when the time comes for an OCLT, do the before and after tests using the instructions in the kit.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP

    should we let the FC drift down so we can accurately measure and adjust pH before the SLAM or should we just start the SLAM once we have enough water to run the pump?
    +1 what smykowski said. Just to clarify, use the normal sample sizes called for in the instructions when performing the OCLT.

    I know it's human nature, but the dilution of these accurate tests to save a few pennies, sort of defeats the purpose of buying a high quality kit to begin with.
    Dave S.
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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP

    Abigail K: Thanks for the response. We used bottled filtered water for dilution and tested it for FC before using so our test should not be skewered. Also as we said our tap water is well water so no chlorine even with that.

    Smykowski: Thank you for the response. We have ordered more FAS/DPD reagents. They should be here in time for the SLAM especially since it looks like we'll be tackling the pH first. In the meantime you're suggestion will be helpful.

    I'll pick up muriatic acid while I'm out today so we can tackle the pH first.
    TF-100 Test Kit
    22,000 gallon, 20x40 kidney-shape IG plaster pool built in 1986
    Nautilus NS-36 DE filter, Hayward Self Prime Super Pump 1HP
    Polaris Automatic Pool Cleaner, PB4-60 3/4 HP pump

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP

    duraleigh: Thanks for your input and the +1 on the recommendation. It's really not about pinching pennies but about having enough reagents if we were told to start SLAMming first which would be over the weekend and before our kit refill arrived. Since we're still filling and not able to run pump it seemed reasonable just to get an idea of where we are.
    TF-100 Test Kit
    22,000 gallon, 20x40 kidney-shape IG plaster pool built in 1986
    Nautilus NS-36 DE filter, Hayward Self Prime Super Pump 1HP
    Polaris Automatic Pool Cleaner, PB4-60 3/4 HP pump

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    Yesterday evening we finally filled enough to run the pump, yeah! We let it run for 4 hours. Ran it again for an hour this morning prior to pulling sample and running full tests. We did accomplish our main goal of reducing CYA, sweet.

    Full test results:

    FC: 10.5
    CC: .5
    CH: 125
    TA: 70
    CYA: 55, maybe 60
    pH: 7.8

    As all the previous responders said to do, we're going to tackle pH first.

    I'm hoping the FC level is low enough now to be giving us accurate pH readings.

    Pool calculator calls for 16 oz of MA to achieve 7.5. SLAM directions say to get to pH of 7.2 to 7.5 before SLAM. I'll add that now.

    The CH dropped down more than we expected with the drain and fill. Should we jump on this too now or focus on just pH so we can start SLAM? Any other input or recommendations?

    Thanks!
    TF-100 Test Kit
    22,000 gallon, 20x40 kidney-shape IG plaster pool built in 1986
    Nautilus NS-36 DE filter, Hayward Self Prime Super Pump 1HP
    Polaris Automatic Pool Cleaner, PB4-60 3/4 HP pump

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    Quote Originally Posted by swoopman View Post
    Yesterday evening we finally filled enough to run the pump, yeah! We let it run for 4 hours. Ran it again for an hour this morning prior to pulling sample and running full tests. We did accomplish our main goal of reducing CYA, sweet.

    Full test results:

    FC: 10.5
    CC: .5
    CH: 125
    TA: 70
    CYA: 55, maybe 60
    pH: 7.8

    As all the previous responders said to do, we're going to tackle pH first.

    I'm hoping the FC level is low enough now to be giving us accurate pH readings.

    Pool calculator calls for 16 oz of MA to achieve 7.5. SLAM directions say to get to pH of 7.2 to 7.5 before SLAM. I'll add that now.

    The CH dropped down more than we expected with the drain and fill. Should we jump on this too now or focus on just pH so we can start SLAM? Any other input or recommendations?

    Thanks!
    pH then SLAM

    Everything else comes after that
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    Thanks Tim! That's reassuring.
    TF-100 Test Kit
    22,000 gallon, 20x40 kidney-shape IG plaster pool built in 1986
    Nautilus NS-36 DE filter, Hayward Self Prime Super Pump 1HP
    Polaris Automatic Pool Cleaner, PB4-60 3/4 HP pump

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    On Friday we got the pH to 7.2. We needed to get pH down and we were anticipating needing to SLAM. However the test numbers were looking good and the water was clear so we did an OCLT last night and had FC loss of less than 1.

    Based on everything I've read I see no reason to SLAM right now.

    So next on the to-do list will be addressing CH unless anyone here tells me differently.

    Thanks.
    TF-100 Test Kit
    22,000 gallon, 20x40 kidney-shape IG plaster pool built in 1986
    Nautilus NS-36 DE filter, Hayward Self Prime Super Pump 1HP
    Polaris Automatic Pool Cleaner, PB4-60 3/4 HP pump

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    If you have passed all three:

    CC is 0.5 or lower;
    You pass an OCLT (ie overnight FC loss test shows a loss of 1.0 ppm or less);
    And the water is clear

    Move on to your CH. Small steps, don't try to do everything at once. Test & adjust a few times to get to your goal.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    Was your OCLT performed at SLAM level?

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    tim5055: Thanks. Yes, we have passed all three. We will do the CH in small steps.

    Abigail K: No, the OCLT was not performed at SLAM level. The directions we followed "Perform the Overnight FC Loss Test (OCLT)" from pool school do not say you need to be at SLAM levels to do the OCLT.
    http://www.troublefreepool.com/conte...loss-test-oclt

    Should we bring the pool up to SLAM level and redo the OCLT?
    TF-100 Test Kit
    22,000 gallon, 20x40 kidney-shape IG plaster pool built in 1986
    Nautilus NS-36 DE filter, Hayward Self Prime Super Pump 1HP
    Polaris Automatic Pool Cleaner, PB4-60 3/4 HP pump

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    No need.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    Thanks Smykowski.
    TF-100 Test Kit
    22,000 gallon, 20x40 kidney-shape IG plaster pool built in 1986
    Nautilus NS-36 DE filter, Hayward Self Prime Super Pump 1HP
    Polaris Automatic Pool Cleaner, PB4-60 3/4 HP pump

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    The calcium chloride that I can find locally is:
    http://www.homedepot.com/p/TETRA-Fla...rd=Tetra+Flake

    I plugged these numbers into pool calculator:
    Current CH: 125
    Target CH: 250

    Calculator tells me to add 407 oz (25 lbs) of calcium chloride. I have enough sense not to dump in 25 lbs of anything all at one time. But I'd sure appreciate...

    1) confirmation that this is the right product
    2) confirmation of my target and calculations from the pros here
    3) some guidance on just how much to add at a time and how long to mix between batches

    Thanks!
    TF-100 Test Kit
    22,000 gallon, 20x40 kidney-shape IG plaster pool built in 1986
    Nautilus NS-36 DE filter, Hayward Self Prime Super Pump 1HP
    Polaris Automatic Pool Cleaner, PB4-60 3/4 HP pump

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    Well I did call first and there is no deicer to be found after the winter we had last winter.

    So I guess it's off to Leslies to pay $46 for only 25 lbs. I'll hold my tongue for the sake of forum decorum.

    My questions remain the same though.

    Thanks.
    TF-100 Test Kit
    22,000 gallon, 20x40 kidney-shape IG plaster pool built in 1986
    Nautilus NS-36 DE filter, Hayward Self Prime Super Pump 1HP
    Polaris Automatic Pool Cleaner, PB4-60 3/4 HP pump

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    Dis you stop by Home Depot and look in the outside garden area? They and Lowes keep seasonal pool supplies out there but you usually can't find them on line due to the seasonal nature. That is where I got mine a few weeks ago.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    Hey tim5055 - thanks for the response. I called 3 home depots within 20 miles and got the same answer from all three... we sold every bag of deicer we had last winter and haven't gotten any more in stock yet.

    Anyone have some input on questions?...

    I plugged these numbers into pool calculator for calcium chloride:
    Current CH: 125
    Target CH: 250

    Calculator tells me to add 407 oz (25 lbs) of calcium chloride. I have enough sense not to dump in 25 lbs of anything all at one time. But I'd sure appreciate...

    1) confirmation of my target and calculations from the pros here
    2) some guidance on just how much to add at a time and how long to mix between batches

    Thanks!
    TF-100 Test Kit
    22,000 gallon, 20x40 kidney-shape IG plaster pool built in 1986
    Nautilus NS-36 DE filter, Hayward Self Prime Super Pump 1HP
    Polaris Automatic Pool Cleaner, PB4-60 3/4 HP pump

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Making Steps Toward TFP - Requesting Input

    Quote Originally Posted by swoopman View Post
    Hey tim5055 - thanks for the response. I called 3 home depots within 20 miles and got the same answer from all three... we sold every bag of deicer we had last winter and haven't gotten any more in stock yet.
    You may be asking for the wrong thing. Don't ask for deicer, ask for Calcium Hardness Increaser from the seasonal pool section. The Defense Hwy store has it in stock (I used to live in Severna Park) but the price showing on line seems high (5lb - $11). Maybe stop by there on the way to Leslies? Or, the price at Leslies really isn't that bad...
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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