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Thread: Borates have disappeared !?!?

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    acgibson's Avatar
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    Borates have disappeared !?!?

    I have finally just finished converting my pool over from the pool store's Bioguard treatment to the TFP method, and just got all my numbers within the recommended ranges. Yesterday my readings were:
    FC 6.63
    TC 6.91
    Alkalinity 71
    pH 7.5
    Hardness 174
    Copper 0.3
    Iron 0.1
    Stabilizer 65
    Borate 32

    I just received my bucket of hardness increaser to finish bringing it up, so I added it to the pool and I also added 1 box of 20 Mule Team that I had left to add a little cushion to the Borates.

    I checked the readings a few hours later and the numbers were a little screwy and the Borates were at 1, but I didn't think much of and waited until this morning to see if they balanced out.

    This morning my readings were:

    FC 3.48
    TC 3.77
    Alkalinity 60 (I had my jets running to help mix and it dropped this down when I added MA along with 20 Mule Team)
    pH 7.5
    Hardness 224
    Copper 0.3
    Iron 0.1
    Stabilizer 65
    Borate 3

    What happened to Borates? Did the hardness increaser burn them out or mess with the readings for a few days? very odd...
    18,900gal Viking 16'x40' Fiberglass In-Ground Pool w/ Cover Pool Auto Cover.
    WhisperFlo WF-24; Clean & Clear RP 150 Cartridge Filter; UltraTemp Heat Pump; IntelliChlor IC40 w/ IntelliPh Acid Pump;
    Easytouch Panel w/Screen Logic. Kreepy Krauly 820 Robot.
    LaMotte WaterLink Mobile Spin Lab & TF100/K2006 w/ Speed Stir.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    Nothing consumed the borates.
    I also would not think that adding the acid and borax should have that much effect on the TA.
    I would vote for Spin Lab inaccuracies.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    mrcarcrazy's Avatar
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    Pick up one of these
    http://tftestkits.net/TF-100-Test-Kit-p4.html


    And some borate strips...
    IG gunite/plaster pool/spa Started 1/17/14, Plastered 5/16/14
    Size: 12'-21'x39' free form, depth ranging from 4' to 7, attached 6 person spa with spillover.
    Equipment: Whisperflo 2hp pump, Pentair 30" sand filter, Pentair Mastertemp 400k BTU heater, 1hp Whisperflo for waterfalls, and a blower for spa floor

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    acgibson's Avatar
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    I have the TF-100 and the recommended products to confirm what my spin lab has been reading after reading a lot of questions in the forums about pool stores accuracy. In around a dozen independent tests with both from the same water sample, they were both almost dead on with each other every time. I did not confirm with both sets of tests this morning, so I will confirm with the manual kit again to make sure. Up until i added the chemicals yesterday, my stable readings like borates and cya have been very consistent. So I am not sure what has happened.

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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    There isn't anything that should have changed the borate level. Your added box should have bumped it up by about 3.

    It seems strange that the box of borax didn't raise the pH ?? It should have raised about .4 if you didn't add any acid ?? Maybe it was just a bad reaction after adding the hardness increaser and if you circulate it and brush some and retest you'll end up where you should be.
    '70s IG Vinyl 32K gal, Lazy L, Hayward SuperPump 1.5hp 120V, S240 Sand Filter W/DE
    Solar Blanket, Well Water, Borax Added, TF-100 tester. ? too cold
    1979, 275gal Conway Emerald Spa P-100-2, ES-2 Spa Pack, bromine floater, indoor
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by kiss4afrog View Post
    It seems strange that the box of borax didn't raise the pH ?? It should have raised about .4 if you didn't add any acid ?? Maybe it was just a bad reaction after adding the hardness increaser and if you circulate it and brush some and retest you'll end up where you should be.
    They said they added acid with the borax.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    acgibson's Avatar
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    Yes, I added acid according to Pool Math dosage. I was in a hurry, and dumped in the 20 mule team and acid right after the CH increaser. Maybe they caused a delayed reaction of some kind and the levels will test properly in a day or two.
    18,900gal Viking 16'x40' Fiberglass In-Ground Pool w/ Cover Pool Auto Cover.
    WhisperFlo WF-24; Clean & Clear RP 150 Cartridge Filter; UltraTemp Heat Pump; IntelliChlor IC40 w/ IntelliPh Acid Pump;
    Easytouch Panel w/Screen Logic. Kreepy Krauly 820 Robot.
    LaMotte WaterLink Mobile Spin Lab & TF100/K2006 w/ Speed Stir.

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    acgibson's Avatar
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    Just took another sample this afternoon:

    FC 0.68
    TC 0.70
    Alkalinity 62
    pH 7.4
    Hardness 216
    Copper 0.1
    Iron 0.0
    Stabilizer 65
    Borate 2

    I just ordered the borate test strips (i didnt have any, but TF kit confirms rest of readings from my spin lab).

    The only thing I just thought of was I did add a CuLator Power Pack to the skimmer basket in pump because my iron and copper readings were floating 0.2 - 0.4. Could that have sucked out borates, and in a matter of a few hours?

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    7 hours ago you posted a set of numbers from yesterday and this morning and now you post another completely different set of numbers also supposedly from yesterday?

    It makes my head hurt looking at all those unneeded "significant" digits
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    Hmmmmmmmm So is that a new set tests or yesterdays results? That's really confusing.
    Pool size: 24000gal inground Vinyl-Taylor k-2006 and k-1766 test kits and-speed stir
    Intermatic P1353ME digital timer w/freeze sensor
    CircuPool Si-45 SWCG System
    Polaris 280 vacuum/Polaris PB4-60 boost pump
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    acgibson's Avatar
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    I'm sorry, I copied and pasted the reading list so I could just change numbers. I must have copied some of the previous text as well. I corrected the previous post.

    The last set of readings were taken when made the post. Borates still near zero, in three consecutive tests. Maybe one glitch, but three?

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    The most important thing I see is that you FC was borderline low this morning and now WAY too low ... allowing this is a sure way to get a cloudy/green pool.

    I assume you had previously added borates to the pool and thus thought the 32ppm from yesterday was believable?

    Why did your signature get turned off?
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    acgibson's Avatar
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    Yeah I added bleach as soon as I saw that and turned up the swg. I had been keeping it covered so the swg was turned down. I left it uncovered when added the chemicals yesterday.

    My borates were consistently stable at 24, for about a week then I brought them up to the low 30s and held there consistently for 4 days. I had one box of borax left so I just threw it in when added ch +.

    I'm on cell phone I must have hit something to turn off signature.... Geez not my day in forum usage lol.

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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    You must have unchecked the show sig box in a reply Window
    Pool size: 24000gal inground Vinyl-Taylor k-2006 and k-1766 test kits and-speed stir
    Intermatic P1353ME digital timer w/freeze sensor
    CircuPool Si-45 SWCG System
    Polaris 280 vacuum/Polaris PB4-60 boost pump
    Pentair IntelliFlo VS 3hp Pump--Pentair sand filter

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    acgibson's Avatar
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    Borates were still at 2 this morning. All the other readings were within recommended ranges for a fiberglass pool. I'm baffled.....the only thing I can think of is the CuLator, but I don't think it could suck them all out in a matter of hours. Something has to be causing interference with the reading, there have been Borates in my pool all summer.
    18,900gal Viking 16'x40' Fiberglass In-Ground Pool w/ Cover Pool Auto Cover.
    WhisperFlo WF-24; Clean & Clear RP 150 Cartridge Filter; UltraTemp Heat Pump; IntelliChlor IC40 w/ IntelliPh Acid Pump;
    Easytouch Panel w/Screen Logic. Kreepy Krauly 820 Robot.
    LaMotte WaterLink Mobile Spin Lab & TF100/K2006 w/ Speed Stir.

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    acgibson's Avatar
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    Re: Borates have disappeared !?!?

    Just thought of something else, although it shouldn't matter. Previously I had been using Bioguard 300 balance pack to raise the CH up. My Pool store ran out of it so I ordered a 25# pail from Leslie's. The day all this happened I used the Leslie's Ch increaser and added that last box of 20 mule team along with the CuLator. So I did use a different product line, but again I wouldn't think it would cause any issue. Other than a different brand, adding one box of borax with the CH increaser, and add the CuLator to skimmer in pump.....nothing is any different than what I've been doing all summer.
    18,900gal Viking 16'x40' Fiberglass In-Ground Pool w/ Cover Pool Auto Cover.
    WhisperFlo WF-24; Clean & Clear RP 150 Cartridge Filter; UltraTemp Heat Pump; IntelliChlor IC40 w/ IntelliPh Acid Pump;
    Easytouch Panel w/Screen Logic. Kreepy Krauly 820 Robot.
    LaMotte WaterLink Mobile Spin Lab & TF100/K2006 w/ Speed Stir.

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