Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 41

Thread: Pool bonding

  1. Back To Top    #1

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    21

    Pool bonding

    Hello -- I am new to this forum and was hoping I could get some advice on pool bonding. I have a 23,000 gallon inground pool that was buit in the 1970s. I don't believe anything is bonded (I saw a video on how to test this with an analog multi-meter and wire -- and think I did it correctly). I have a metal ladder, metal light, and metal pump (the pump is about 6 feet away from the pool). The light niche doesn't have any metal in it and no lug that I can connect the #8 wire to (since there is no metal casing in the niche, I don't think that would do any good anyway). I recently replaced the light and am going to add a GFCI breaker (there were no GFCI breakers at all) and the conduit leading to the light. I used the grey rigid PVC non-metallic conduit from HD. Since there was no lug in the concrete niche, I just ran the 3 wires from the light, through the conduit (I haven't back-filled the ditch I dug for the conduit yet and there is still room in the conduit if I need to run another wire). Another thing is that I have a metal bar driven into the ground that sits next to my pump. I am thinking this is a grounding rod, but I have also seen in the forums that it could be a bonding rod. Since I don't believe anything is bonded, I am guessing it is a grounding rod. There is a solid copper piece (looks like a very thick solid wire) going from the pump to the rod. All of this leads me to my questions -
    1. Do you believe that is a grounding rod that sits next to my pump, or a bonding rod?
    2. I'm not sure if rebar was used in the construction or not, but if there was rebar and it isn't bonded, should I still try to bond the light, ladder, and pump? Or would that not do me any good because the rebar would have a different potential?
    3. If yes, would I just run the #8 from the screw that is on the light, to the j-box and then run a #8 from the pump and ladder to the same j-box and connect all 3 to the green screw? FYI -- There is no J-box currently --- I would have to install one..
    4. For the ladder, would I just cut the concrete and attach the #8 to he leg that goes into the concrete and run it to the jbox (underground)?
    5. Do I need to run the #8 through conduit, or can I just run it in the earth?
    6. Since the ladder steps are in the pool, would that also bond the water? (the light is obviously in the water too)..
    7. I also read that when bonding a pool, there needed to be wire wrapped completely around the pool. Is that correct? Or, is that just for the rebar?

    To recap: I'm trying to figure out if I should bond everything (I believe I should), and if so, will the ladder, pump and light be enough (without the rebar bonded). And, if I should bond them, what is the best way to go about doing so.

    Any help/advise will be much appreciated!

    Brian

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,342

    Re: Pool bonding

    Welcome to TFP.

    1) I believe that it was intended as a bonding device. However things have changed a lot since the 70's.
    2) You should try and bond everything you can. Even if you can't get to the rebar, bond everything else. In cutting the decking you may be able to get to the rebar to bond it while you're at it.
    3) Just run the #8 bare wire from the niche to the light junction box then to the pump/ladder/etc..
    4) Yes. See if you can find some rebar while you're cutting and bond that to the wire also.
    5) Just run it in the earth.
    6) The ladder and/or the niche will bond the water.
    7) there should be a wire ran all the way around the pool and attached to the rebar in at least four places. If you have a concrete deck then the rebar will effectively encompass the pool. If you have pavers then you would bury the wire about 4" deep 18" to 24" from the shell.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    21

    Re: Pool bonding

    Thank you for your reply Bama Rambler. When you say to run the #8 to the niche, can I run it directly to the screw on the light? Or, do I need to purchase a metal niche insert? My niche is concrete and there is no metal insert or lug.

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    21

    Re: Pool bonding

    A few more questions -- I also read that I need to run a different #8 from the light to a green screw in a junction box for stray voltages (like eddy currents). Does this mean I need to run 2 #8 wires from the niche? If I have to buy a metal niche insert, would I run the bonding #8 from the niche lug and the stray current #8 from the light itself? I appreciate your assistance.

  5. Back To Top    #5
    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    SW Indiana
    Posts
    9,089

    Re: Pool bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by KSUBrian View Post
    A few more questions -- I also read that I need to run a different #8 from the light to a green screw in a junction box for stray voltages (like eddy currents). Does this mean I need to run 2 #8 wires from the niche? If I have to buy a metal niche insert, would I run the bonding #8 from the niche lug and the stray current #8 from the light itself? I appreciate your assistance.
    The green screw in the junction box is to ground the metal parts of the box. It should not be connected to a bonding lug or wire. Connecting extra ground wires is a good way to create stray voltage.
    TFP Moderator
    20K Gallon 20X36 Vinyl Inground
    Hayward S244T Sand Filter with 1HP Whisperflo Pump. Liquidator C-201 and Solar Heat

  6. Back To Top    #6
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,342

    Re: Pool bonding

    You don't need a #8 for the grounding just for the bonding. The ground wire in the light power cables goes to the green lug.
    Since you have a concrete niche there's really no benefit to bonding it. However, you do need a water bond and if it's easy to buy a metal niche insert, that would be a good way to do it.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  7. Back To Top    #7

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    21

    Re: Pool bonding

    Thank you for the information JohnT and Bama. So, is this what I need to do? --- Run the light's power cable to the Jbox. From there, connect THHN from the positive and from the neutral and run back to the sub panel. Then, do I run the light's ground wire from the Jbox to the subpanel, and ground it there -- or do I terminate the ground inside the Jbox? Is there anything else I need to do for the light?
    Then, I am needing to bond my pump, light, and ladder together. Assuming that I don't purchase a metal niche insert, do I just run the #8 from the screw on the light? Then, can I just run that #8 to the pump and then from the pump to the ladder? Or, do I need to run #8 from all 3 components into the Jbox and then connect them in there? I am trying to figure out what the purpose of the jbox is -- besides the fact that I need to connect the light's power cable to THHN, inside of it, and run individual wires to the subpanel. Does anything actually get connected to the jbox itself?
    Bama -- I have a metal ladder that is in the pool, which I think will bond the water. Since you say that the lights green wire needs to go to the green lug, can I assume that the green lug inside of a metal niche is a grounding lug? If so, I am back to my question above about where to ground that green wire.
    Sorry for my ignorance and so many questions, but I am wanting to make sure I have everything correct. I appreciate your help..

  8. Back To Top    #8
    gtemkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    738

    Re: Pool bonding

    KSU Brian. Could you please clarify the "screw on the light" you refer to. In your first post you said the light is all plastic and there's nothing to connect to. But later you ask if you should connect a bond wire to a "screw on the light". If you're taking about a single securing screw whose dimension in any direction is no greater than 4", I don't believe that needs to have a bond connection. If the screw is simply a metal screw that goes through plastic and into plastic, then no, there would be no reason to bond that.
    21K gal 16' x 40' in-ground pool built 1959, old school with Jacuzzi bronze pump, American Products 24" Sand Filter & Americana Multiport valve, Jandy Lite2 millivolt heater, Coverstar cover, and classic Kreepy Krauly.

  9. Back To Top    #9
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,342

    Re: Pool bonding

    The green screw inside the light junction box is just a convenient place to tie all the grounds together.
    The light cables should have a ground wire in them unless they're 12 volt.
    There should be a separate lug for connecting the bond wires.
    The U. S. sees the grounding and bonding as separate entities but it doesn't prohibit the bonding loop from being grounded at some point.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    21

    Re: Pool bonding

    Thank you for your reply gtemkin. The light is 110V. The light is actually metal, but the light niche doesn't have any metal in it. It is just a concrete niche hole. For the "light screw", I am referring to the screw on the light that is used to secure the light to the metal niche (if I had a metal niche). Since I don't have a metal niche, I just had to use some JB weld Waterweld to secure the light to the niche hole, and the screw on the light isn't being used for anything, since there was nothing to screw it in to. I am looking to bond the metal light to the ladder and pump. Just trying to figure out if I need to bond the light to those other two items, and if so, do I just connect the #8 anywhere on the light?

  11. Back To Top    #11

    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    21

    Re: Pool bonding

    Bama,
    Thank you for your response, but I am a bit confused as to what you are saying. Do I need to terminate the light's grounding wire inside the Jbox, or on the subpanel? The only ground I will have running to the Jbox is the light's power cable ground, so there aren't any grounds to tie together.
    When you say there needs to be a separatge lug for connecting the bond wires, I am not sure what that means. I don't have a "lug" anywhere that I know of. If I don't have a "lug", can I just tie the ladder, light, and pump together with #8, inside the jbox?

  12. Back To Top    #12
    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    SW Indiana
    Posts
    9,089

    Re: Pool bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by KSUBrian View Post
    Bama,
    Thank you for your response, but I am a bit confused as to what you are saying. Do I need to terminate the light's grounding wire inside the Jbox, or on the subpanel? The only ground I will have running to the Jbox is the light's power cable ground, so there aren't any grounds to tie together.
    When you say there needs to be a separatge lug for connecting the bond wires, I am not sure what that means. I don't have a "lug" anywhere that I know of. If I don't have a "lug", can I just tie the ladder, light, and pump together with #8, inside the jbox?
    You'll have the ground wire in the light power cable and the ground in the feed wire from the panel. They connect to each other and to the metal of the junction box.

    Bonding does not happen inside junction boxes. It is separate in every way from the electrical system powering the pool.
    TFP Moderator
    20K Gallon 20X36 Vinyl Inground
    Hayward S244T Sand Filter with 1HP Whisperflo Pump. Liquidator C-201 and Solar Heat

  13. Back To Top    #13
    dumbcluck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    long beach
    Posts
    670

    Re: Pool bonding

    Why even use a jbox? Why not just straight pipe to the sub panel?

  14. Back To Top    #14
    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SouthWest Alabama
    Posts
    22,342

    Re: Pool bonding

    The NEC requires a junction box above the level of the pool water for any lights.

    JT did a good job of explaining the grounding and bonding. If you don't have a ground wire from the light, you should have.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

  15. Back To Top    #15
    dumbcluck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    long beach
    Posts
    670

    Re: Pool bonding

    I guess the jbox is because of potential water. You could just run straight through though and leave a loop. No need to splice.
    -Jimbo- My pool was full of dirt and trees. Now it's full of water and children!
    20k gallon inground pool, 18" raised spa 7' round, 8 jets, 3" spa plumbing. Pentair intelliflo 3hp vsp, Easy touch 4 w/ ic 40, CCP 420 cartridge filter, Raypak 407a w/ cupro nickel, Screen logic 2, Pentair intelliph, spa side remote, Pentair 5g color lights pool and spa, TF-100 test kit with speed stir and Dolphin Oasis Z5

  16. Back To Top    #16

    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    2,769

    Re: Pool bonding

    No you have to splice in the jbox. You cannot terminate the cord from the light directly in a panel or subpanel. While the code does not say that explicitly there is no way to comply with the code otherwise.

    It makes no sense to run the cord all the way to the panel anyway. The light fixture is hardwired equipment. So you want to be able to turn off the circuit at the panel to replace the equipment, (in this case a light) without turning off the entire panel and opening it up. Another practical reason is that the light run must be GFI protected. GFCI breakers are 2 to 3 times the cost of GFCI receptacles. So you can run from the panel to a GFCI receptacle to the jbox to your light fixture saving the cost of a GFCI breaker. Finally, placing a loop in the light cord in the jbox would not provide strain relief at the terminating end of the cord as required by the code.
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

  17. Back To Top    #17
    dumbcluck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    long beach
    Posts
    670

    Re: Pool bonding

    it would largely depend on how you wanted to control the light. (switch or plug) a plug would be very inconvenient.
    while a light could be considered hardwired equipment plugging in to a gfci receptacle would mean that you have cut the cord and wired a male end on it to plug into receptacle. that means it is no longer hardwired. you could however hardwire it to a gfi switch. or you could wire it straight into the panel and use the breaker to control it. (not recommended) there is also absolutely no reason to shut down the whole panel just to change out a breaker. you simply remove the dead front.
    if you are actually reffering to using a hardwired cord to plug into a gfi plug as your disconnect, it is possible but not very professional. the word scabby comes to mind.
    -Jimbo- My pool was full of dirt and trees. Now it's full of water and children!
    20k gallon inground pool, 18" raised spa 7' round, 8 jets, 3" spa plumbing. Pentair intelliflo 3hp vsp, Easy touch 4 w/ ic 40, CCP 420 cartridge filter, Raypak 407a w/ cupro nickel, Screen logic 2, Pentair intelliph, spa side remote, Pentair 5g color lights pool and spa, TF-100 test kit with speed stir and Dolphin Oasis Z5

  18. Back To Top    #18
    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    SW Indiana
    Posts
    9,089

    Re: Pool bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbcluck View Post
    it would largely depend on how you wanted to control the light. (switch or plug) a plug would be very inconvenient.
    while a light could be considered hardwired equipment plugging in to a gfci receptacle would mean that you have cut the cord and wired a male end on it to plug into receptacle. that means it is no longer hardwired. you could however hardwire it to a gfi switch. or you could wire it straight into the panel and use the breaker to control it. (not recommended) there is also absolutely no reason to shut down the whole panel just to change out a breaker. you simply remove the dead front.
    if you are actually reffering to using a hardwired cord to plug into a gfi plug as your disconnect, it is possible but not very professional. the word scabby comes to mind.
    You can wire it to the load side of a GFCI outlet without using the plug at all. IIRC, the ground wire for the light must be continuous from panel to junction box per NEC.
    TFP Moderator
    20K Gallon 20X36 Vinyl Inground
    Hayward S244T Sand Filter with 1HP Whisperflo Pump. Liquidator C-201 and Solar Heat

  19. Back To Top    #19
    dumbcluck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    long beach
    Posts
    670

    Re: Pool bonding

    so, you would use the test switch on the gfi to control light? you could do this with a gfi switch. but if you are talking about using the test switch on the gfi receptacle to control the light, you are seriously misreading the code.
    I hope I am misunderstanding.
    you could use the load side of a gfi plug and be compliant with safety but you cant control it with one.
    -Jimbo- My pool was full of dirt and trees. Now it's full of water and children!
    20k gallon inground pool, 18" raised spa 7' round, 8 jets, 3" spa plumbing. Pentair intelliflo 3hp vsp, Easy touch 4 w/ ic 40, CCP 420 cartridge filter, Raypak 407a w/ cupro nickel, Screen logic 2, Pentair intelliph, spa side remote, Pentair 5g color lights pool and spa, TF-100 test kit with speed stir and Dolphin Oasis Z5

  20. Back To Top    #20
    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    SW Indiana
    Posts
    9,089

    Re: Pool bonding

    Quote Originally Posted by dumbcluck View Post
    so, you would use the test switch on the gfi to control light? you could do this with a gfi switch. but if you are talking about using the test switch on the gfi receptacle to control the light, you are seriously misreading the code.
    I hope I am misunderstanding.
    you could use the load side of a gfi plug and be compliant with safety but you cant control it with one.
    You use the outlet only for protection. You can still use a switch or connect to an automation device to control the light
    TFP Moderator
    20K Gallon 20X36 Vinyl Inground
    Hayward S244T Sand Filter with 1HP Whisperflo Pump. Liquidator C-201 and Solar Heat

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •