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Thread: optimal chem balance with swg

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    optimal chem balance with swg

    I was reading the section of pool school that lists the optimal chem ranges for swgs. This differs from what my aquarite swg and local pool store recommend. The key differences I noticed are:
    FC = 1-3ppm AR vs 4-6ppm TFP
    TA = 80-120ppm vs 60-80ppm

    Why such a big difference? Which should I follow?
    13,000 gal, IG vinyl, Hayward sand filter, Hayward Super Pump VS, Aquarite t-15 swg, Laars Lite 2 LG heater

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    jcowart's Avatar
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    Re: optimal chem balance with swg

    Because they do not figure in the effects of chlorine bound to CYA. They also use the gov standard of 3 ppm max that is from drinking water with no CYA.
    17500 gallon Doughboy AGP, Hayward DE filter, waiting for the 1.5hp DB pump to go out.
    Learn to take the advice here and be trouble free or use the pool store's advice. "You can't do both and get very far"

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    Re: optimal chem balance with swg

    Get your TA up to 120 and try to control pH. You'll find out real quick who to follow.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Re: optimal chem balance with swg

    All manufacturers seems to ignore the FC/CYA relationship, even though it has been well understood for over 30 years.
    A SWG will raise the pH over time, a lower TA slows down that rise.

    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Re: optimal chem balance with swg

    Thanks! The pool store is always telling me my cya is a little low. Glad I just ordered my K2006 kit so I don't have to rely on them anymore!

    Quote Originally Posted by jcowart View Post
    Because they do not figure in the effects of chlorine bound to CYA. They also use the gov standard of 3 ppm max that is from drinking water with no CYA.
    So the higher chlorine recommendation is because of the lower cya?
    13,000 gal, IG vinyl, Hayward sand filter, Hayward Super Pump VS, Aquarite t-15 swg, Laars Lite 2 LG heater

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: optimal chem balance with swg

    Quote Originally Posted by abfab View Post
    So the higher chlorine recommendation is because of the lower cya?
    This makes no sense. I think you confused CYA and TA.

    Our higher FC recommendations are due to the higher (than 0) CYA level. The TA has nothing to do with these as I mentioned above.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    Re: optimal chem balance with swg

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    All manufacturers seems to ignore the FC/CYA relationship, even though it has been well understood for over 30 years.
    Could you elaborate on what that relationship is please? My FC is currently at 4 and CYA at 35. I understand that my CYA is currently low. I understood CYA as sunglasses for pH.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieH View Post
    Get your TA up to 120 and try to control pH. You'll find out real quick who to follow.
    See....This is an example Jason....not a very helpful post to a newbie with 25 posts under their belt and fundamental and exceptionally reasonable questions.
    Central TX / 12K GAL / IG / SWG / DE filter / Pentair SVRS & 3 swim jet pumps / Spa bench and jets / Single body of water / No heater.

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    jcowart's Avatar
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    Re: optimal chem balance with swg

    Cya does several things. Yes it is like sunglasses for chlorine. UV breaks down free chlorine very fast. When it is bound by CYA the break down is slower. It also buffers the effects of free chlorine or takes the harshness from the chlorine. Basically with bound chlorine, you will test higher FC but the effects on the pool, equipment, swimsuits and you are much lower. TFP uses a 7.5% ratio for manual pools and 5% for SWG. As the CYA goes up the FC also needs to go up to keep the ratio. That's why people have problems after a while when they use chlorine pucks. They add both chlorine and CYA. It gets to a point when the CYA gets too high. That's when the pool stores make the big bucks. They sell and sell chemicals and when that does not work they give you terms like chlorine lock and you need to drain. That's the only way to get rid of CYA. The TA is lower because SWG tend to drive up pH. The TA is a buffer for your pH. It's something that really takes some experimenting with. By that I mean, every pool has it's own personality. One pool might like 120 and your neighbors pool might like 80. I would start somewhat low. Watch how your pH does and if it rises fast then make a small adjustment with your TA till you find that happy spot your pool likes. Yes your CYA is low for a SWG pool but I would not do anything until you get your kit. Pool store test vary wildly and it might not be 35. TFP recommends 60-80 for a SWG. The main thing to ask yourself is, do you want a trouble free pool or pool store advice. As you can see they do not mesh. It's one or the other but I can tell you this. You will have the best looking pool if you follow the advise here.
    17500 gallon Doughboy AGP, Hayward DE filter, waiting for the 1.5hp DB pump to go out.
    Learn to take the advice here and be trouble free or use the pool store's advice. "You can't do both and get very far"

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    Re: optimal chem balance with swg

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieH View Post
    Get your TA up to 120 and try to control pH. You'll find out real quick who to follow.
    This means the ph is less stable when the ta is higher, meaning it takes more effort / muratic acid to keep it where you want it.
    DONE, 20 x 40, inground gunite, 30" raised bond beam with 3 12" sheer descents, 8' diving board, pentair 420 cartridge filter, vs-3050 pump, intellechlor ic-40, auto cvr, Tahoe blue pebble tech, 6ea 4' x 12.5' & 2ea 1' x 12.5' helicol solar panels, legend robotic cleaner.

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    Re: optimal chem balance with swg

    Quote Originally Posted by eqbob View Post
    See....This is an example Jason....not a very helpful post to a newbie with 25 posts under their belt and fundamental and exceptionally reasonable questions.
    I apologize for being humorous in my post. To be fair, you asked who you should follow, and I used a sarcastic remark to let you know we will recommend you follow the methods here.

    And at 25 posts, I assumed you have already been told to review Pool School, and didn't see any need to be repetitive. The effects of TA are outlined in Pool School in the ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry.
    http://www.troublefreepool.com/conte...ater-chemistry
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Re: optimal chem balance with swg

    I have a salt water pool and if my TA is 80-90 my PH is stable all summer and I never have to add acid.
    10,000 gal Inground Fiberglass Pool;Aquarite SWG; Hayward H Series Gas Heater;
    Hayward Sand Filter; 1.5 HP Hayward Max-Flo VS Pump; Dolphin Pool Cleaner; TF100 Test Kit

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    Re: optimal chem balance with swg

    No reason to apologize to to him Robbie he's not the one who asked the question. And your tiny bit of sarcasm was right on!
    Pool size: 24000gal inground Vinyl-Taylor k-2006 and k-1766 test kits and-speed stir
    Intermatic P1353ME digital timer w/freeze sensor
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    Pentair IntelliFlo VS 3hp Pump--Pentair sand filter

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    Re: optimal chem balance with swg

    Quote Originally Posted by jcowart View Post
    Cya does several things. Yes it is like sunglasses for chlorine. UV breaks down free chlorine very fast. When it is bound by CYA the break down is slower. It also buffers the effects of free chlorine or takes the harshness from the chlorine. Basically with bound chlorine, you will test higher FC but the effects on the pool, equipment, swimsuits and you are much lower. TFP uses a 7.5% ratio for manual pools and 5% for SWG. As the CYA goes up the FC also needs to go up to keep the ratio. That's why people have problems after a while when they use chlorine pucks. They add both chlorine and CYA. It gets to a point when the CYA gets too high. That's when the pool stores make the big bucks. They sell and sell chemicals and when that does not work they give you terms like chlorine lock and you need to drain. That's the only way to get rid of CYA. The TA is lower because SWG tend to drive up pH. The TA is a buffer for your pH. It's something that really takes some experimenting with. By that I mean, every pool has it's own personality. One pool might like 120 and your neighbors pool might like 80. I would start somewhat low. Watch how your pH does and if it rises fast then make a small adjustment with your TA till you find that happy spot your pool likes. Yes your CYA is low for a SWG pool but I would not do anything until you get your kit. Pool store test vary wildly and it might not be 35. TFP recommends 60-80 for a SWG. The main thing to ask yourself is, do you want a trouble free pool or pool store advice. As you can see they do not mesh. It's one or the other but I can tell you this. You will have the best looking pool if you follow the advise here.
    Great explanation. Thank you!
    13,000 gal, IG vinyl, Hayward sand filter, Hayward Super Pump VS, Aquarite t-15 swg, Laars Lite 2 LG heater

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