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Thread: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

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    New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    Ok....so 1 1/2 years in I am still fighting my pool builder with the performance of my new filter.

    From day one dirt always poured through the sand back into the pool...I started with "glass" media and ultimately replaced with "sand".

    With the glass, the water NEVER filtered, and lots of small particles (included DE) would just pour back into the pool.

    Now with sand, I have clear water, but I always have issues with dirt and bugs blowing through the sand and ending back into the pool.

    Just today I tried adding DE (on low speed) and a minute later all the DE was blowing back out of the returns.

    My PB says I am crazy and sand will never trap DE and a little dirt always blows through...HOWEVER I know better.

    So - where should I start...last time this was happening I had no channeling when I removed the top....so I am at so confused how "bugs" can just get sucked up and then blow right through the sand back into the filter.

    For what is it worth, here are my numbers

    FC = 7
    CC = 0
    CYA = 40
    TA = 110 (yes a bit high, but my pH is super stable)
    pH = 7.7 (not quite 7.8 color)

    I pass OCLT with some regularity of course.

    Water is super clear, until I vacuum and then all the "dirt" blows back into the pool and I get a bit of cloudiness.

    I would like to start from scratch to resolve this, I assume I MUST have broken laterals, plus other issues, but would love the experts to guide me.
    14,750 GAL IG Fiberglass (16 x 33) NE Ohio || Jandy 1HP 2 speed Pump || Waterco MultiCyclone 16 Centrifugal pre-filter (removed due to not working with sand filter) || 30" 575 Lb. Sand Filter || AquaCal 140K BTU Heat Pump || Solar Cover || Inter-fab Adrenaline Slide || GLI Monsoon Solar Cover Reel || K-2006C Test Kit || BBB with Liquid Chlorine Stenner Injection || Rayner Mighty Mesh Winter Cover

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    Patrick_B's Avatar
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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    Sand WILL trap DE if the filter is working properly. I have put it in every time I backwash and restart, and it NEVER comes back through. Yours is obviously not. If all that is happening, there is something severely wrong. Channeling and a broken/broken seal lateral. Otherwise there isn't much left aside from your multiport spider gasket. The only other thing I can think of is your pump. Is there any chance your pump is over-sized for your filter? If so, it could push things through. Looking at your specs, I highly doubt it.

    With all these intact, you should not have these issues.
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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    Quote Originally Posted by Brushpup View Post
    Sand WILL trap DE if the filter is working properly. I have put it in every time I backwash and restart, and it NEVER comes back through. Yours is obviously not. If all that is happening, there is something severely wrong. Channeling and a broken/broken seal lateral. Otherwise there isn't much left aside from your multiport spider gasket. The only other thing I can think of is your pump. Is there any chance your pump is over-sized for your filter? If so, it could push things through. Looking at your specs, I highly doubt it.

    With all these intact, you should not have these issues.
    OK, so first question...if I had channeling is this something you can see with your naked eyes - or is this something that is invisible and you have to "deep clean" (even though sand is 30 days old) to fix.

    Also, I get how channeling would cause the DE to flow through and the bugs, but if I am also getting bits of sand is that related, or do I also have a secondary issues, sounds like I have both
    14,750 GAL IG Fiberglass (16 x 33) NE Ohio || Jandy 1HP 2 speed Pump || Waterco MultiCyclone 16 Centrifugal pre-filter (removed due to not working with sand filter) || 30" 575 Lb. Sand Filter || AquaCal 140K BTU Heat Pump || Solar Cover || Inter-fab Adrenaline Slide || GLI Monsoon Solar Cover Reel || K-2006C Test Kit || BBB with Liquid Chlorine Stenner Injection || Rayner Mighty Mesh Winter Cover

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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    As a follow up...I took my filter apart today and the sand was smooth as a baby's butt on top..I stuck my hand in and everything seemed to be nice and loose with no visible channeling.

    Any idea if I should be able to see channeling with my naked eyes ?
    14,750 GAL IG Fiberglass (16 x 33) NE Ohio || Jandy 1HP 2 speed Pump || Waterco MultiCyclone 16 Centrifugal pre-filter (removed due to not working with sand filter) || 30" 575 Lb. Sand Filter || AquaCal 140K BTU Heat Pump || Solar Cover || Inter-fab Adrenaline Slide || GLI Monsoon Solar Cover Reel || K-2006C Test Kit || BBB with Liquid Chlorine Stenner Injection || Rayner Mighty Mesh Winter Cover

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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    Mmmmm, no action on this one ?

    Does anyone know if I should be able to see channeling or is it all naked to the eye ?
    14,750 GAL IG Fiberglass (16 x 33) NE Ohio || Jandy 1HP 2 speed Pump || Waterco MultiCyclone 16 Centrifugal pre-filter (removed due to not working with sand filter) || 30" 575 Lb. Sand Filter || AquaCal 140K BTU Heat Pump || Solar Cover || Inter-fab Adrenaline Slide || GLI Monsoon Solar Cover Reel || K-2006C Test Kit || BBB with Liquid Chlorine Stenner Injection || Rayner Mighty Mesh Winter Cover

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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    At 30 days in the filter, channeling seems unlikely. I'd tear the whole thing down and look for the usual suspects: worn spider gasket, broken laterals, broken standpipe, any space between the standpipe and the multiport.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    Did you also got a new filtertank when switching from glass to sand? Is the current tank en insides made specific for sand or only glass (or is there no difference)?
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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    Quote Originally Posted by Smykowski View Post
    At 30 days in the filter, channeling seems unlikely. I'd tear the whole thing down and look for the usual suspects: worn spider gasket, broken laterals, broken standpipe, any space between the standpipe and the multiport.
    Yeah that is what I thought....so here is my confusion...laterals are DOWN LOW in the bottom of the filter correct ? If so, stuff is either getting THROUGH ALL 600 lbs of sand OR it is bypassing the sand. I assume it HAS to be bypassing the sand.

    Remember, the entire filter is just about a year old (should have put that in my post)...so before I suck all the sand out, I assume my issue has to be up top ? Is that fair ?

    So that narrows it to the spider gasket or space between multiport or broken stand pipe UP HIGH somewhere. Or am I totally lost.

    As a side note, the PB just 30 days ago (when he replaced sand) said he checked laterals, gaskets, etc....and all were fine.

    I supposed a year old spider gasket can just be BAD from the get go...I am not sure how to tell, I will do a bit more research and contact the Filter Mfg as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by koffie View Post
    Did you also got a new filtertank when switching from glass to sand? Is the current tank en insides made specific for sand or only glass (or is there no difference)?
    Yeah one in the same, no difference...I wish it did make a difference, at least I would have an angle.
    14,750 GAL IG Fiberglass (16 x 33) NE Ohio || Jandy 1HP 2 speed Pump || Waterco MultiCyclone 16 Centrifugal pre-filter (removed due to not working with sand filter) || 30" 575 Lb. Sand Filter || AquaCal 140K BTU Heat Pump || Solar Cover || Inter-fab Adrenaline Slide || GLI Monsoon Solar Cover Reel || K-2006C Test Kit || BBB with Liquid Chlorine Stenner Injection || Rayner Mighty Mesh Winter Cover

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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    What does your pressure gauge read?
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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    10 -12 PSI on HIGH when clean, on low barely 4 PSI - and I've really NEVER got any pressure rise...I've added DE and it just BLOWS right through back into the pool.
    14,750 GAL IG Fiberglass (16 x 33) NE Ohio || Jandy 1HP 2 speed Pump || Waterco MultiCyclone 16 Centrifugal pre-filter (removed due to not working with sand filter) || 30" 575 Lb. Sand Filter || AquaCal 140K BTU Heat Pump || Solar Cover || Inter-fab Adrenaline Slide || GLI Monsoon Solar Cover Reel || K-2006C Test Kit || BBB with Liquid Chlorine Stenner Injection || Rayner Mighty Mesh Winter Cover

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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    Quote Originally Posted by toofast View Post
    10 -12 PSI on HIGH when clean, on low barely 4 PSI - and I've really NEVER got any pressure rise...I've added DE and it just BLOWS right through back into the pool.
    What filter do you have?

    I have an experiment you might want to try. Take the eyeall fittings off of your returns and try the DE addition again. I had a filter that was bad about returning dirt to the pool, but it wasn't nearly as bad when the eyeballs weren't on the returns. It never made sense to me, and I finally gave up and got a different filter.

    It seems to me, and I'm just guessing here, that the debris isn't going through the sand. If it's not going through the sand, it's either leaking into the riser piper or sneaking through the multiport to the return side. The top of the filter above the sand is going to be full of pressurized dirty water. The water in the riser and on the return side of the multiport will be at a lower pressure.

    So what are the options?

    A crack in the riser above the level of the sand? Seems like that would have been found.

    A missing seal or O-ring where the riser joins to the multiport?

    A bad spider gasket?

    A weak spring in the multiport? (Does the handle on the multiport return solidly to the up position when you let it go?)

    Something (sand, debris, a piece of gasket, a poorly molded piece of plastic) keeping the multiport from fully seating?
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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
    What filter do you have?

    I have an experiment you might want to try. Take the eyeall fittings off of your returns and try the DE addition again. I had a filter that was bad about returning dirt to the pool, but it wasn't nearly as bad when the eyeballs weren't on the returns. It never made sense to me, and I finally gave up and got a different filter.

    It seems to me, and I'm just guessing here, that the debris isn't going through the sand. If it's not going through the sand, it's either leaking into the riser piper or sneaking through the multiport to the return side. The top of the filter above the sand is going to be full of pressurized dirty water. The water in the riser and on the return side of the multiport will be at a lower pressure.

    So what are the options?

    A crack in the riser above the level of the sand? Seems like that would have been found.

    A missing seal or O-ring where the riser joins to the multiport?

    A bad spider gasket?

    A weak spring in the multiport? (Does the handle on the multiport return solidly to the up position when you let it go?)

    Something (sand, debris, a piece of gasket, a poorly molded piece of plastic) keeping the multiport from fully seating?
    I have a Waterco Micron S750

    Here are links to the manual and brochure if that helps.

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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-b...it?usp=sharing

    I've actually tried the eyeball test before and I still get blow through...get it on High as well as Low.

    It's been this way since day one...HOWEVER I don't think I have a seal or ring where the riser joins the multiport, wonder if that is the missing link. I don't see that anywhere on the diagrams, perhaps I will call them to find out, unless anyone knows.

    The spring is SUPER STRONG and no debri in the Multiport...

    No cracks in riser (that I can see)

    Spider Gasket was checked by PB 30 days ago and he said perfect....guess I can double check this.

    HOWEVER - If a seal is necessary as mentioned above...for sure I am missing that!
    14,750 GAL IG Fiberglass (16 x 33) NE Ohio || Jandy 1HP 2 speed Pump || Waterco MultiCyclone 16 Centrifugal pre-filter (removed due to not working with sand filter) || 30" 575 Lb. Sand Filter || AquaCal 140K BTU Heat Pump || Solar Cover || Inter-fab Adrenaline Slide || GLI Monsoon Solar Cover Reel || K-2006C Test Kit || BBB with Liquid Chlorine Stenner Injection || Rayner Mighty Mesh Winter Cover

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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    Ok, so I think that perhaps the ONLY POSSIBLE issues is the "fit" of the MutliPort valve on top of the stem pipe or whatever that is called is a bit loose, and even at low pressure, junk is getting PAST that "union".

    Below is a pic and video to explain...so can someone give me some guidance if this makes sense. Can't be laterals, because sand is not blowing back into the pool. Can't be spider valve as I get no leaks and it looks perfect. Can't be channeling, as my sand is not channeled...so I am left with this as the ONLY possible (I think) explanation.

    The first pic is the inside of multiport valve...with the oring that is supposed to make the "seal" on the stem pipe, then below the video simulates the loose fit.



    14,750 GAL IG Fiberglass (16 x 33) NE Ohio || Jandy 1HP 2 speed Pump || Waterco MultiCyclone 16 Centrifugal pre-filter (removed due to not working with sand filter) || 30" 575 Lb. Sand Filter || AquaCal 140K BTU Heat Pump || Solar Cover || Inter-fab Adrenaline Slide || GLI Monsoon Solar Cover Reel || K-2006C Test Kit || BBB with Liquid Chlorine Stenner Injection || Rayner Mighty Mesh Winter Cover

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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    I can't watch the video, but from the picture it looks like there are two grooves??? The upper one looks like it has an appropriate O-ring in it, but the lower one looks like the O-ring has been swallowed if there is one in there.
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    Re: New(ish) Sand Filter still spewing junk after multiple attemps from Pool Builder

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
    I can't watch the video, but from the picture it looks like there are two grooves??? The upper one looks like it has an appropriate O-ring in it, but the lower one looks like the O-ring has been swallowed if there is one in there.
    So I am not sure...can't get seem to get an answer from the MFG of how exactly it should be. But all I know is that seal is not super tight and even with minimal pressure, stuff will take the path of least resistance, which his back into the pool vs. through the sand.
    14,750 GAL IG Fiberglass (16 x 33) NE Ohio || Jandy 1HP 2 speed Pump || Waterco MultiCyclone 16 Centrifugal pre-filter (removed due to not working with sand filter) || 30" 575 Lb. Sand Filter || AquaCal 140K BTU Heat Pump || Solar Cover || Inter-fab Adrenaline Slide || GLI Monsoon Solar Cover Reel || K-2006C Test Kit || BBB with Liquid Chlorine Stenner Injection || Rayner Mighty Mesh Winter Cover

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