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Thread: Lowering TA to Add Borates

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    Lowering TA to Add Borates

    I'm sold on the idea of adding borates. Step #1 is to lower TA. I started today at 140 TA. Brought pH down to 7.0 with muriatic acid. Now to aerate to raise pH via aeration. Given my rather nifty aeration, how long should I anticipate this will take to raise pH back up to 7.5?

    001 compressed.jpg
    Home pool: Intex 11,400 gallon AG vinyl pool with sand filter & SWG. Taylor K-2006 test kit - coastal Georgia. I'm also in charge of the Elk's Lodge Pool, which is 55,000 gallons in-ground concrete with sand filter, 2 HP Hayward pump, currently using tri-chlor pucks and cal-hypo system.

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    Patrick_B's Avatar
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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    Difficult to say and anyone giving you a number would be guessing. Your fill TA is fairly high, so it may take a little while. If you are following the TFPC guide for this, then you know you have to get that TA down before adding.
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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    Change of aeration device! The other one seemed ineffective. (I'm using a koi pond pump, not the pool's pump to do this.)

    aeration 2 compressed 2.jpg
    Home pool: Intex 11,400 gallon AG vinyl pool with sand filter & SWG. Taylor K-2006 test kit - coastal Georgia. I'm also in charge of the Elk's Lodge Pool, which is 55,000 gallons in-ground concrete with sand filter, 2 HP Hayward pump, currently using tri-chlor pucks and cal-hypo system.

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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    Days or weeks. Mine will bounce the pH quickly back up to 7.2...like three or four days, then struggle to pull it past that. I got my TA down by lowering to 7.0 each time I hit 7.2, stepping the TA down a bit each time.

    I'm doing the exact same thing as you right now, for the same reason. Your aerator may be a bit better than mine.
    Fayetteville, NY -17K gal, IG vinyl, Hayward SP2300VSP Max-Flo Variable Speed Pump, FlowVis Flow Meter, Sand filter
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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    Surprise, surprise. pH was up to 7.8 when I got home. Added a 2nd aeration device using a 1/3 hp sump pump(see pic) and more muriatic acid to bring pH down again. This may not take all week!

    2nd aeration device compressed.jpg
    Home pool: Intex 11,400 gallon AG vinyl pool with sand filter & SWG. Taylor K-2006 test kit - coastal Georgia. I'm also in charge of the Elk's Lodge Pool, which is 55,000 gallons in-ground concrete with sand filter, 2 HP Hayward pump, currently using tri-chlor pucks and cal-hypo system.

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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    I love your tenacity!
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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    What is your TA now?
    Fayetteville, NY -17K gal, IG vinyl, Hayward SP2300VSP Max-Flo Variable Speed Pump, FlowVis Flow Meter, Sand filter
    Self designed Arduino powered automation for pump and solar control, Solar Attic Pool Heater, AutoPilot Digital SWG, TF100

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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    It took me three months and a new plaster finish which used 6 gallons of muriatic acid to go from a TA of 130 to 70. I have a slide which runs water into the pool and a hot tub which we use the jets occasionally. When we close the pool in a month and a half I plan on adding boric acid to the hot tub which we keep open until December.
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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    Quote Originally Posted by peterdaly View Post
    What is your TA now?
    100-110. Not sure which b/c I went from 8 drops to 11. (Yes, I can be impatient.)

    Also, I just added another 4 cups of muriatic acid b/c pH was already back up to 7.4. Will let it circulate for a while b4 I measure pH again.
    Home pool: Intex 11,400 gallon AG vinyl pool with sand filter & SWG. Taylor K-2006 test kit - coastal Georgia. I'm also in charge of the Elk's Lodge Pool, which is 55,000 gallons in-ground concrete with sand filter, 2 HP Hayward pump, currently using tri-chlor pucks and cal-hypo system.

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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    Quote Originally Posted by wjr75 View Post
    It took me three months and a new plaster finish which used 6 gallons of muriatic acid to go from a TA of 130 to 70.
    It took longer because the new plaster was putting out calcium hydroxide and/or had plaster dust (calcium carbonate) both of which increase pH and TA. You only get the TA down much faster when the primary source of pH rise is from carbon dioxide outgassing. If one has a lot of evaporation and refill with water high in TA, then that also makes lowering the TA take longer.
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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    Chem geek - I just went from 110 to 70 with 4 steps down with muriatic acid. Am I correct in my gut feel that it's harder to increase the pH through aeration as the TA level goes down?

    Results of my aeration on pH seem slower, but I don't know if that is due to other factors.
    Fayetteville, NY -17K gal, IG vinyl, Hayward SP2300VSP Max-Flo Variable Speed Pump, FlowVis Flow Meter, Sand filter
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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    Yes, you are correct that as the TA gets lower it takes longer for the pH to rise. That's really the point because you want to have a lower TA to have more pH stability when using hypochlorite sources of chlorine. This table shows you how over-carbonated water is compared to the carbon dioxide in air. Notice how lower pH and higher TA is more over-carbonated. That's why you lower the pH for the procedure to accelerate the outgassing (the aeration also accelerates this and is part of the process) and that the water becomes less over-carbonated as the TA gets lower.

    There is a direct fixed relationship between the amount of acid added and the reduction in TA so you can accurately estimate your TA drop based on how much acid you add during the process. For your 17,000 gallon pool, it takes 43-1/2 fluid ounces of full-strength Muriatic Acid (31.45% Hydrochloric Acid) to lower the TA by 10 ppm.
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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    This morning pH was 7.8 and it required 56 oz. muriatic acid to bring it down to 7.0. The first dose was 48 oz. TA test pink-ish (kind of not really) at 10 drops. Red at 11. So TA did not significantly change overnight.

    Butterfly, what does mean?
    Home pool: Intex 11,400 gallon AG vinyl pool with sand filter & SWG. Taylor K-2006 test kit - coastal Georgia. I'm also in charge of the Elk's Lodge Pool, which is 55,000 gallons in-ground concrete with sand filter, 2 HP Hayward pump, currently using tri-chlor pucks and cal-hypo system.

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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    Are you sure that you don't have static electricity making the titrating drops in the TA test too small or squirting out? Wipe the dropper tip with a damp cloth. 56 ounces of full-strength Muriatic Acid in 12,500 gallons should lower the TA by 17.5 ppm so should have been measurable.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    I am amazed .... or incompetent. Test results when I got home from work: pH 7.8, TA 80, FC 10 (ran SWG last night and again today semi by accident kind of not really). So, I poured a very small, unmeasured bit (maybe half a cup?) of M.A. in, let it circulate with aerators still on, and then disassembled aerators without performing any further tests.

    Going to give the pool a rest tonight.

    Oh, ChemGeek, the 56 oz of M.A. was added this morning. Last night was only 4 cups, or 32 oz.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hmmm, almost out of CYA reagent. Getting low on FC reagent as well. That didn't take long!
    Home pool: Intex 11,400 gallon AG vinyl pool with sand filter & SWG. Taylor K-2006 test kit - coastal Georgia. I'm also in charge of the Elk's Lodge Pool, which is 55,000 gallons in-ground concrete with sand filter, 2 HP Hayward pump, currently using tri-chlor pucks and cal-hypo system.

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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    I took out my aerators last fall --didn't need any more pH. And neither do you right now! My SWG manual says pH should be between 7.2 and 7.8
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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    Quote Originally Posted by timerguy View Post
    I took out my aerators last fall --didn't need any more pH. And neither do you right now! My SWG manual says pH should be between 7.2 and 7.8
    hes trying to lower his TA quickly to add borates
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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    From experience, I feel that you are doing the right thing by getting the TA of your pool to 70 ppm. Pool Math works very efficiently and is very accurate. Getting my TA down to 70 before the addition of boric acid was very crucial indeed. I did the addition in halves, added half of the boric acid; then half the muriatic acid. Finished it off with what the pool math configured and bam, my PH was exactly where I started and the TA was minimally higher (seriously, just a tick higher).
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    Re: Lowering TA to Add Borates

    Well, I got busy (and lazy) plus I used the last bit of my R 0871 for the FC test and last bit of R0013 for CYA test on a friend's nasty, neglected pool. So, I'm in a holding pattern of doing a whole lot of nothing until new supply of reagents arrives.

    I'm going to start a new thread regarding the friend's pool.
    Home pool: Intex 11,400 gallon AG vinyl pool with sand filter & SWG. Taylor K-2006 test kit - coastal Georgia. I'm also in charge of the Elk's Lodge Pool, which is 55,000 gallons in-ground concrete with sand filter, 2 HP Hayward pump, currently using tri-chlor pucks and cal-hypo system.

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