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Thread: Hi from Western Mass

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    Hi from Western Mass

    Hello everyone.....just found this forum....just moved and put in a new pool on the Fall....I had a pool at my other residence for 7 years.....I have a kidney shaped tri level 20K gallon EcoSmarte pool and just swiched from DE to their Glass Pack filter system....

    I've seen there is a lot of negativity towards EcoSmarte but it seems to work well for me so I have no complaints.....I had a cartridge filter in my previous pool and the company that did the install put a DE filter in.....it was just not working out as I was changing the DE every week as it was getting "clogged" quickly and really slowing the pool down....

    I'm crazy about my water and feel after 7 years of EcoSmarte I have it pretty much well down to a science....just introducing myself and look forward to the forum.....Eric

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Welcome to TFP!!!

    If the DE was clogging up, then it was catching stuff in your water and doing its job. I have no idea what a glass pack filter system is.

    So do you add chlorine to your pool?
    We will NEVER advocate for adding metal to the water just due to potential staining and green hair and the fact that you still need a residual of FC in the water for the pool to actually be safe, so why bother with the copper?
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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    Welcome to TFP!!!

    If the DE was clogging up, then it was catching stuff in your water and doing its job. I have no idea what a glass pack filter system is.

    So do you add chlorine to your pool?
    We will NEVER advocate for adding metal to the water just due to potential staining and green hair and the fact that you still need a residual of FC in the water for the pool to actually be safe, so why bother with the copper?
    Thanks!....yes I agree the DE was doing a great job but the time spent replacing the DE got to be pretty annoying so I went with glass.....I kept my DE filter just in case and the true test will be next spring....

    I do not use any chlorine.....I've had the ecosmarte for 7 years with not a hint of staining or green hair.....I live in New England and have a day of half sun and shade....it is a liner pool as the short season does not warrant the cost of a gunite....it understand the controversy with not using any chlorine but all I can say is that it has worked great for me in my conditions....I maintain a zero level of FC in the pool....I keep the copper at aroind .5 and the calcium at 4-500....the ph is kept at 6.8.... the water remains clear and my dogs drink from it with no issues....it's pretty much like swimming in drinking water....

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Well, hope no one transmits and catches any diseases in your pool ...
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    Well, hope no one transmits and catches any diseases in your pool ...
    So I'm new to this site and have been using this system for almost 8 years....why does it not work then?.....very curious as to why FC is an absolute must....thanks for the help

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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Because while copper will kill off algae, it doesnt kill other types of bacteria, you can be algae free but the water isnt sanitary. Chlorine sanitizes and disinfects the water http://www.ehagroup.com/resources/sw...hing-diseases/ like at a nice clear pond... just because the water LOOKS clean doesnt mean that its safe to swim in or drink from.
    12k - free form - plaster- Nautilus fns48 DE filter- centurion 1hp (so quiet)- In floor cleaning system with Jandy Caretaker - TF-50 and 5 in 1 test kit, Phoenix, Az

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    Casey's Avatar
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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Welcome.

    Please consider using chlorine to disinfect your pool. I would be very curious what your levels read with a TF100 test kit.

    Also, your pH is to low and it could ruin your equipment. You do know vinyl pools don't need calcium or is this part of your ecosystem?

    Who uses the pool? Dogs? Children? Elderly?
    I'd bet you my bikini you'll never get TFP water from a pool store!

    24' Sharkline Venture De Filter

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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey View Post
    Welcome.

    Please consider using chlorine to disinfect your pool. I would be very curious what your levels read with a TF100 test kit.

    Also, your pH is to low and it could ruin your equipment. You do know vinyl pools don't need calcium or is this part of your ecosystem?

    Who uses the pool? Dogs? Children? Elderly?
    I will check that kit out....my Ph has been at 6.8 in my other pool for 7 years with the same equipment and it has been fine.....the pool is mainly used by adults, kids, and seldom the dogs.....the calcium needs to be at a min of about 400 ppm for the ecosmarte system....I add some at the beginning of the year and that's usually it....

    This info goes against what I have been doing for a long time as well as what my pool company and Ecosmarte have told me....do you suggest I scrap the ecosmarte and switch to chlorine?.....I just can't stand a chlorinated pool....

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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Welcome to the Forum

    I think (guess) you could run the ECOsmarte with chlorine but I'd ask ECOsmarte. I love the idea of no chlorine but it doesn't look like copper alone gets the job done adequately. I personally would be worried about sharing that pool with anyone. Someone with something you don't want to catch isn't real likely to share that they have it. Maybe they are embarrassed, maybe they don't understand how it's transmitted, maybe they think the water will kill it, maybe they don't know yet they have it. That's a lot of maybes and if the copper doesn't kill it fast enough it's possible, slightly possible you could be infected. http://www.ehagroup.com/resources/sw...hing-diseases/

    I'm sorry we can't be more positive as your system seems to work great for keeping algae out of the pool. It's just that water that is clear isn't necessarily sanitary. If a child (or adult) had an accident in the pool it looks like copper has a 99% kill rate in 40 minutes. I wouldn't want to think about being in that pool with 40 minutes of urine.

    Everyone is pretty much saying the same thing and that is you don't have anything (chlorine, bromine or Baqua) to kill bacteria. Apparently that isn't true but the copper the ECOsmarte systems uses isn't nearly as effective as the three approved chemicals and it's not approved for use in pools (commercial) for a reason, it doesn't work as well. Someone quoted how it's used in hospitals for specific sanitizing and that's the problem. In that situation it's likely the best to kill that germ in that application but that doesn't mean it's the best at killing all germs/bacteria/virus/... in a pool. I like the idea that anything coming off or out of someone in the pool is likely killed/oxidized almost immediately. That doesn't happen with copper.

    ECOsmarte basics: http://www.ecosmarte.com/man/diag/generalpool.html

    Quote Originally Posted by chem geek and pulled from this ECOsmarte thread: http://www.troublefreepool.com/threa...e-it-does-work

    This EcoSmarte thread has some info and additional links, while this thread on another forum (the one Jason linked to above) is about Pristine Blue and this link has some references to copper kill times. It's not easy to find definitive data on silver and copper kill times for easy-to-kill bacteria, but roughly speaking it seems to be 99% kill rates with silver at around 10-20 minutes and 99% kill rates with copper at around 40 minutes. Chlorine with an FC that is around 10% of the CYA level has a 99% kill rate at 30 seconds to a minute which should be fast enough to reasonably prevent person-to-person transmission of many pathogens.

    Silver and possibly copper kill fast enough to prevent uncontrolled bacteria growth, but probably not fast enough to prevent person-to-person transmission. Bacteria double in population every 15-60 minutes so one wants a 50% kill time faster than that if one is to prevent bacteria from growing faster than they get killed. A 50% kill in 15 minutes roughly translates to a 99% kill in 100 minutes so silver beats this and copper does as well though without much margin for error.

    The above is probably why commercial/public pools in the U.S. must use an EPA-approved sanitizer (chlorine, bromine or Baqua/biguanide/PHMB) since they kill quickly enough to likely prevent person-to-person transmission of most pathogens. Silver and copper can only be used as supplements, not standalone. The same is true for ozone and UV, though that has more to do with these systems not having any residual effect in the bulk pool water.

    For spas, it does appear that a combination of silver ion with non-chlorine shock (potassium monopersulfate, MPS) is an effective sanitizer that appears to have been approved by the EPA. I write more about this technically in this post on another forum. It is the "low chlorine" recipe described in the Nature2 (N2) manual here though technically it is a "no chlorine" recipe most of the time.

    From a practical point of view, the risk in residential pools is far lower unless you throw pool parties with people who are sick. That's probably why there aren't regulations for managing the chemistry of residential pools nor restrictions in what can be sold to the residential market. The only requirement by FIFRA (product labeling) rules the EPA enforces is that you can't claim your product is a disinfectant or sanitizer for pools and spas unless it passes DIS/TSS-12, though you can call your product a pesticide or algaecide if it is registered (silver and copper are both registered as pesticides/algaecides). For spas, metal ions alone are better than nothing, but the risk of getting hot tub itch/rash from the bacteria Pseudomonas aeruginosa (which fairly rapidly forms resistant biofilms) is possibly still high enough to be safer using an EPA-approved sanitizer (including N2+MPS). In any event, metal ions are not oxidizers so some sort of oxidizer must be added to spas in order to oxidize bather waste or else you will build up a lot of urea and ammonia (among other things).
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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Hi from across the river in Agawam. I have switch to the TFP way this year, and have had 0 problems. These folks seem to know their stuff. With the TF100 kit and the online calculator, it is a breeze. Just put in your data and it tells you exactly how much of which chemical to use.
    10K gal, AG, Hayward 1HP
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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Welcome to the forum Mrsquirel1
    '70s IG Vinyl 32K gal, Lazy L, Hayward SuperPump 1.5hp 120V, S240 Sand Filter W/DE
    Solar Blanket, Well Water, Borax Added, TF-100 tester. ? too cold
    1979, 275gal Conway Emerald Spa P-100-2, ES-2 Spa Pack, bromine floater, indoor
    TF-100, Best test kit - TFTestkits.net
    Please help keep the lights on, become a TFP Supporter!

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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Well thanks everyone for the welcome and responses....I will have to reevaluate how I am doing things....I know that chlorine along with the copper can cause staining.....maybe I look into using Baquacil, which is a non chlorine product....the question would be how much?



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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Please take a look at the Baq forum ... nearly every one that comes to this forum is looking to convert away from it due to expense and cloudy water.

    Chlorine works. Any negatives you may have experienced are likely due to pools that were not properly maintained and balanced. Read all the threads where people ask if there is chlorine in the crystal clear pools of our members ... when done properly, no one can tell there is chlorine in the pool.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    I can say that using tfp method my chlorine pool does not feel, smell or taste like a chlorine pool... I just comes back from a3 day trip do i bumped my cl to shock level (16ppm) and you can't smell any chlorine at all. So if those are the issues you have with chlorine then this method takes care of all of them
    12k - free form - plaster- Nautilus fns48 DE filter- centurion 1hp (so quiet)- In floor cleaning system with Jandy Caretaker - TF-50 and 5 in 1 test kit, Phoenix, Az

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    Casey's Avatar
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    Re: Hi from Western Mass

    Chlorine does not stain a pool either. Metals (copper) in the water will.
    I'd bet you my bikini you'll never get TFP water from a pool store!

    24' Sharkline Venture De Filter

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