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Thread: still teal and cloudy

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    rmozer's Avatar
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    Unhappy still teal and cloudy

    I have been battling a green pool since the beginning of summer. I needed a new filter and by the time I installed it, it was slim green.
    It's been about a week of SLAMing the pool and I have gotten the water to look teal, but it is still cloudy. I ran out of Cl indicator yesterday and now I am flying blind. I should get some either today or tomorrow.
    I checked my cyanauric acid level last week and it seemed low. (about 15). I checked again this morning and it was at about 25 ppm.
    I was maintaining the FC level at 14 -15 ppm and CC at 0.5 - 1.0.
    I also have brushed it several times
    I am running the pool filter 24/7 but it doesn't seem to be clearing up at all.
    I can send you the data I have been recording if it would help.

    Here are my questions:
    how much liquid chlorine (8.25%) should I add daily as I wait for my Cl indicator solution?
    is my cyanauric acid level low and should I add some at this point?
    should I run my variable speed pump full throttle, or on low?
    should I turn the pump off overnight to let the particulates settle out?
    should I add some DE to the filter?
    what about adding a flocking agent?

    Thanks.

    Bob
    22,000 gallons
    new Hayward sand filter
    IG
    vinyl
    2 hp Variable speed pump; 20 gpm/ft2 filtration rate; 62 gpm design flow rate

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    Quote Originally Posted by rmozer View Post
    Here are my questions:
    how much liquid chlorine (8.25%) should I add daily as I wait for my Cl indicator solution?
    is my cyanauric acid level low and should I add some at this point?
    should I run my variable speed pump full throttle, or on low?
    should I turn the pump off overnight to let the particulates settle out?
    should I add some DE to the filter?
    what about adding a flocking agent?

    Thanks.

    Bob
    how much liquid chlorine (8.25%) should I add daily as I wait for my Cl indicator solution?
    You were actually a little high on the chlorine for your SLAM and generally it's not a situation of if some chlorine is good, more must be better. Once you go above the shock level too far for too long it can be harsh on your equipment. But, if you added CYA and were expecting a higher rise I'm off base on this one. As you ar flying blind it is tough to say how much you should be adding. Do you have a feel for how much you have been adding so far and think you can keep it in the same area?

    is my cyanauric acid level low and should I add some at this point?
    Don't worry about CYA until you are done with the SLAM

    should I run my variable speed pump full throttle, or on low?
    Just keep it circulating, so I think low should work, but I may get corrected by someone more senior on this.

    should I turn the pump off overnight to let the particulates settle out?
    No, 24/7 during SLAM

    should I add some DE to the filter?
    This is something you might add at the end of a SLAM to get that final push to clear the water. Don't worry about it until you pass a OCLT.

    what about adding a flocking agent?
    Nope, don't add flock
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    rmozer's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    Thanks for the suggestions Tim.
    If I was reading the Cl CYA chart correctly, if my CYA was at 15, the SLAM FC should only be 10? Is that why you say I was a bit high on the Cl?
    I was trying to keep the Cl higher because the water was still greenish, rather than blueish. It looks like the color has changed now to a blue milk rather than green milk.
    Know what I mean?
    What about backwashing? I keep thinking that the more the filter gets clogged, the more it will filter. I will keep an eye on the pressure so it doesn't get too high.

    Bob
    22,000 gallons
    new Hayward sand filter
    IG
    vinyl
    2 hp Variable speed pump; 20 gpm/ft2 filtration rate; 62 gpm design flow rate

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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    Overdosing on FC is just a waste of bleach. The higher the FC, the more you lose to the sun, and the higher the risk of beaching the liner. The levels have been fine tuned over a few years to provide the best balance between kill rates and UV losses. Stick with them.

    You are correct - a slightly dirty sand filter filters better than a freshly cleaned one. Backwash when the clean pressure rises 25% or you notice the flow is visibly reduced. When you find your chlorine demand starts to drop off and the color change stops, you could add DE then. But be aware that it really filters good, so you'll load that filter up within a couple hours. So do it when you're around to watch the pressure.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    Quote Originally Posted by rmozer View Post
    If I was reading the Cl CYA chart correctly, if my CYA was at 15, the SLAM FC should only be 10? Is that why you say I was a bit high on the Cl?
    Yes, that was my point. As Richard pointed out it is just a waste of chlorine. Glad it seems to be changing for the better.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    rmozer's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    OK...I got my chlorine indicator and my current results are as follows:

    today, 6:30 am
    FC: 15 ppm
    CC: 1
    pH: 7.4
    color: milky blue
    clarity: 10 inches

    how long can I expect before I see the water start clearing up?
    is there something else I should be doing?
    my CYA is still low. earlier statement was not to worry about it until finished SLAMing.

    Thanks.
    22,000 gallons
    new Hayward sand filter
    IG
    vinyl
    2 hp Variable speed pump; 20 gpm/ft2 filtration rate; 62 gpm design flow rate

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    rmozer's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    Is anyone out there?
    I posted this, this morning and no replies.

    Please help.
    22,000 gallons
    new Hayward sand filter
    IG
    vinyl
    2 hp Variable speed pump; 20 gpm/ft2 filtration rate; 62 gpm design flow rate

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    Quote Originally Posted by rmozer View Post
    OK...I got my chlorine indicator and my current results are as follows:

    today, 6:30 am
    FC: 15 ppm
    CC: 1
    pH: 7.4
    color: milky blue
    clarity: 10 inches

    how long can I expect before I see the water start clearing up?
    is there something else I should be doing?
    my CYA is still low. earlier statement was not to worry about it until finished SLAMing.

    Thanks.
    There is no way to say it easier, it takes as long as it takes. I'd love to tell you a specific time frame, but every one is a little different.

    You should see a little change every day, or even from morning to night. Green to blue; taking less chlorine to bring it back to shock level; seeing deeper & deeper into the pool. You gotta just stick with it and keep it at the shock level.

    Don't get discouraged. Some have taken weeks. Yours is slowly changing relatively quickly.

    Test
    adjust chlorine
    brush
    repeat

    That is what it takes.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    You are still failing at least 2 of the criteria to stop the SLAM process (high CC and not clear water).

    What is your filter pressure looking like? What is clean pressure? Are you backwashing when it rises 20-25%?
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    rmozer's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    I'm confused...how is 1.0 ppm CC high?
    One person says my chlorine levels are too high and I am wasting my money on Chlorox. Now you suggest by your comment that I need to add more chlorine to get the CC down.
    What am I missing on the chlorine?
    Regarding the clarity, there's nothing more I can do about the clarity of the water. I'm running the pump 24/7.
    What are you suggesting I do?
    Bob
    22,000 gallons
    new Hayward sand filter
    IG
    vinyl
    2 hp Variable speed pump; 20 gpm/ft2 filtration rate; 62 gpm design flow rate

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    You are missing an understanding of the terminology ... so, back to basics. Read: ABCs of Water Chemistry

    FC = good
    CC = bad, ideally 0.

    I am suggesting you answer my questions from the previous post What you are witnessing with the filter pressure and when you are cleaning it?
    Might be time for a Deep Cleaning of your Sand Filter
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    Quote Originally Posted by rmozer View Post
    I'm confused...how is 1.0 ppm CC high?
    One person says my chlorine levels are too high and I am wasting my money on Chlorox. Now you suggest by your comment that I need to add more chlorine to get the CC down.
    What am I missing on the chlorine?
    Regarding the clarity, there's nothing more I can do about the clarity of the water. I'm running the pump 24/7.
    What are you suggesting I do?
    Bob
    As it says in Pool School ABC's
    CC - Combined Chlorine

    Combined chlorine is an intermediate breakdown product created in the process of sanitizing the pool. CC causes the "chlorine" smell many people associate with chlorine pools. If CC is above 0.5, you should SLAM your pool. CC indicates that there is something in the water that the FC is in the process of breaking down. In an outdoor pool, CC will normally stay at or near zero as long as you maintain an appropriate FC level and the pool gets some direct sunlight.
    Chlorine is an oxidizer. Burning things oxidizes them. Consider Chlorine to be the flame. CC is smoke. If you want a clean burn, you raise the heat. That's shock level.

    If your CYA level is 25, then shock level is 10-12-ish. Raising it higher than that just causes the sun to rob more. Maintaining 10 every hour is better than going to 15 four times a day.

    It will take as long as it takes. If there is a bunch of organic debris in the bottom, it will drag things out for weeks. Likewise a weak filter will slow it down. Has the color stopped changing? It's not getting any bluer/greyer? Have you tried Diatomaceous Earth as mentioned in my earlier reply and in the SLAM article?
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    rmozer's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    OK, gotcha, Richard.
    The color has pretty much stayed the same milky blue, but the clarity has not improved in over a week.

    At 8:00 pm last night (7/23) here's what I measured:
    pH: 7.4
    CYA: 35
    Alk: 90
    FC: 10
    CC: 0.5
    TC: 10.5
    I then added 1 gal 8.25% chlorox.

    At 10:30 pm (7/23):
    FC 16.0
    CC: .5
    TC: 16.5

    At 6:00 am this morning (7/24):
    FC: 16.0
    CC: .5
    TC: 16.5

    One thing I have noticed is that when I backwashed the filter after over a week of running the pump 24/7, there wasn't as much debris in the discharge as I expected. I am now starting to think my filter isn't working correctly. I just installed a new Hayward sand filter (S244S) so I didn't think there should be a problem, but with the lack of debris in the backwash, and the persistent cloudiness, I'm starting to have some doubts. I will take the top off just to see if there's anything obvious going on inside. Until now, I haven't paid much attention to the filter pressure. At the lowest speed, the filter pressure at the top of the filter tank is 8 PSI, and the gage at the Multiport is at 10.
    Any comments on the 2 PSI pressure difference?

    Your comments and guidance are very much appreciated.

    Thanks.
    22,000 gallons
    new Hayward sand filter
    IG
    vinyl
    2 hp Variable speed pump; 20 gpm/ft2 filtration rate; 62 gpm design flow rate

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    rmozer's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    I added some DE (1 cup total) and saw the pressure go up about 2 PSI.
    I'll keep my eye on it through the day to see if things improve.

    Any comments on my earlier post?

    Bob
    22,000 gallons
    new Hayward sand filter
    IG
    vinyl
    2 hp Variable speed pump; 20 gpm/ft2 filtration rate; 62 gpm design flow rate

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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    If you didn't see a plume of DE come out the return when you added it, it sounds like the filter is working. I'd expect to see noticeable pressure increases now. It's almost as if you were filtering through a barbecue grill and now you have a window screen sitting on top of it.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    rmozer's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    Well I've been battling this teal green and cloudy pool all summer. I have been maintaining a FC level of at least 12 as per a CYA of 25 since the middle of July, and I still haven't cleared it up.
    The latest observation was when I turned up the speed from low to full throttle of my Hayward variable speed pump and noticed a plume of particulates blowing out of the return jets into the pool. This is now suggesting that the all the crud that has been caught on the sand filter bed during low flow becomes mobilized when the pressure through the filter increases. I have used DE to help with the filtration of my new sand filter, so all that must have been recirculated back into the pool causing the cloudiness?

    My question is at this point....should I set the pump on high or low 24/7 until the situation clears up?
    Thanks.

    Bob
    22,000 gallons
    new Hayward sand filter
    IG
    vinyl
    2 hp Variable speed pump; 20 gpm/ft2 filtration rate; 62 gpm design flow rate

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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    How ld is the filter? (I saw you said it was new) Nothing should he coming back in, whatever the speed is. That could be the reason you haven't achieved clarity yet. Maybe something wasn't seated properly during installation.
    26' X 52" Intex Ultra Frame. Intex Sand Filter
    26' X 52 Intex Ultra Frame Install
    You can lead a horse to (clear) water, but you can't force him to swim in it!

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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    I too have been having the EXACT same scenario as rmozer. Exact! Run times through his last post of measured levels. The only thing I have not done was add the DE to the filter, which is on order from Amazon.

    My only thought as to why the water is still bluish cloudy is that when I put new sand in the filter, I didn't wash the sand by backwashing. Could this be mine or our problem? I just read the Hayward sand filter manual and it stated that with initial set up, backwash for 5 minutes. Kind of makes sense......
    27' AG 17,000 gallon
    Hayward 220 Sand Filter

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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    You also need to make sure you rindpse after back washing.
    26' X 52" Intex Ultra Frame. Intex Sand Filter
    26' X 52 Intex Ultra Frame Install
    You can lead a horse to (clear) water, but you can't force him to swim in it!

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    rmozer's Avatar
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    Re: still teal and cloudy

    My sand filter is a new Hayward S244. I used the recommended sand (#20 silica) which I purchased from my local pool supplier, who said this is the sand used by all the local pool contractors.
    I backwashed the sand for 5 minutes before filtering and ran it to rinse afterwards.
    The only thing I did wrong in the beginning of this project was that I did not install the diffuser on the filter. After a few days and not seeing any improvement, I opened the top and saw that the diffuser wasn't installed and the sand bed wasn't a flat surface and had channalized. I corrected the problem at least 1 month ago. While I have seen some improvement where I could only see to the top of the first step, and now I can barely see the 3rd step. I would have expected the water to have started to clear up by now.

    Last night: FC = 26 CC = 0
    Backwashed and added 1 cup DE
    Filter pressure went from 8 lbs to 10 lbs after adding DE at 1750 rpm
    This morning pool water is still cloudy and murky green.

    If there's something wrong inside the filter, how do I remove the sand? My old filter had 2 halves that I could easily separate and get at the sand. This one only has a hole at the top and it has 300 lbs of sand in it.
    22,000 gallons
    new Hayward sand filter
    IG
    vinyl
    2 hp Variable speed pump; 20 gpm/ft2 filtration rate; 62 gpm design flow rate

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