Pool Equipment Remodeling Advice

[polyharmonic]

Not long ago I bought a house with a pool in Phoenix AZ. Although new to pool care, I managed based on info from this excellent site!

Recently my filter pump died and other pumps don't sound too great. I have listed my setup in my signature but here is some additional details. When facing the pool equipment, this is the arrangement from left to right:
- TR100 Sand Filter
- Sand Filter WhisperFlo Pump (MagneTek Motor Part 8-165201-07 2HP)
- Spa Jet Pump (MagneTek Motor Part 7-177452-03 unknown HP)
- Waterfall Pump (MagneTek Motor Part 8-184323-21 unknown HP)
- Infloor Cleaner Pump (AO Smith Motor K48L2PA101A1 unknown HP)
There is a Clearwater LM3 SWG (in disrepair) and Purex Spa Water Heater (never used by me) in "front" of all the pumps.

I have programmed my Aqualink PDA to turn on the filter and infloor cleaner pumps 6-8 hours daily during overnight hours.

My first priority is replacing the filter pump. Here are some choices I'm considering with prices from my local pool store:
1 Pentair IntelliFloXF 022005 $1078-$150 rebate=$928
2 Sta-Rite IntelliProXF 023005 $1073-$150 rebate=$923
3 Pentair WhisperFloXF 022007 2HP - XFDS-8 Dual Speed $736
4 Pentair WhisperFlo 011515 2HP Single Speed $610 (direct replacement of current pump)

My summer (may-october billing cycles) utility rates are:
on-peak kWh​​ $0.24477​
off-peak kWh $0.06118​

As noted above, my utility is offering a one-time $150 rebate on "qualifying ENERGY STAR® variable-speed pool pumps.

Some questions I have are:
1. What do people recommend for my replacement filter pump?
2. Can the IntelliFlo/IntelliPro replace multiple pumps (such as filter and spa or even filter, spa and waterfall?)
3. Will my old Aqualink RS work with IntelliFlo or would I need to use the built-in programming until I upgrade to newer automation system? (not a big deal if I have to use the built-in controls)
4. Any other comments about my setup and what I might consider doing beside the filter pump upgrade?

Thanks for any and all help!

 

[polyharmonic]

I should probably also add to the list:
Intelliflo VS 011018: $869-$150 = $719

This is $200 cheaper than XF version.

One additional thing I'm wondering is if choosing between IntellifloVS and IntellifloXF, I have to go with VS due to plumbing. I'm not sure if my existing plumbing works with XF or not. At least some of the lines seem to be 2" and XF seems to want 2.5".

 

[jblizzle]

Welcome to TFP!!!

WOW this pool is an energy hog. If you are replacing a pump that is only used for filtration, you may as well get a much smaller 2-speed pump like the ~$400 1HP 2-speed Superflo. There is no reason to have to run on high speed since you have pumps for all the other pieces of the pool ...

OR

You can try to consolidate things. I had a single pump at previous house that ran an infloor cleaner or I could switch it to run the spa or I could turn on a small waterfall. It kind of depends on how you want to use the equipment as to how you could combine things. Post up some pictures.

BTW, generally there is no need for the XF pumps unless you need VERY high flow rates.

 

[1poolman1]

Please remember that neither the IntelliFlo nor the IntelliPro will directly interface with your Jandy control system. They both will require the purchase and installation of an IntelliCom II. The fact is that most of the variable-speed pumps available are "smarter" than the remote systems that we try to connect them to. Given your $.245 @kWh costs, the variable-speed pumps are the most energy efficient. You might want to consider the Hayward ECOStar. It can interface without buying extra parts, but the hook-up is a little tricky, similar to installing the IntelliCom II.

 

[JasonLion]

A large variable speed pump can often replace two or more other pumps, but you usually need to change the plumbing at the equipment pad fairly significantly, and may need a larger filter as well. With your setup, it is likely that you would need a fairly high end automations system to get a single pump to replace all four pumps and be controllable in any rational way. You would also be limited to running one of the extra functions at a time, i.e. spa, or waterfall, or in-floor but not two or more at the same time.

Interfacing a variable speed pump to an older automation system generally requires one relay on the automations system for every speed you want to be able to use.

The XF makes no sense unless you really want to move a huge amount of water. Unless you already have larger plumbing the odds of that being true are very low.

If you can get your pump runtime at nighttime rates, the two speed makes more sense. Your day time rates, if you need to run during the day, justify the variable speed choices.

 

[polyharmonic]

Here is the schematic of the pool

 

[jblizzle]

No picture is showing up ... check your link

 

[polyharmonic]

Here is a pic of the pool with waterfall:

 

[polyharmonic]

Here is a pic of the Equipment Pad:

 

[polyharmonic]

I have updated my link above to the pool schematic. I have also just added pics of the pool and the equipment. Someone can confirm but it would appear that my pool plumbing may not support XF. I believe you only get an advantage with XF if you have 2.5"+ plumbing. It says main drain is 2.5" but it looks like the other pipes are 2". (Again not sure). I've read people have install XF on plumbing where at least part of it is 2" but if there's no performance/efficiency advantage whatsoever then I'm not sure why you would use XF.

My pool was built in 2000 so I guess only the newer pools are using 2.5"+ pipes throughout now. That's too bad. The underground piping obviously cannot be replaced with 2.5" plumbing without major work and expense and would never be worth it but wish I had modern 2.5" pipes to begin with.

 

[jblizzle]

Why do you continue to think that you need the very high flow rates of an XF pump? The more water you move, the more $ you are spending on electricity.

 

[polyharmonic]

Why do you continue to think that you need the very high flow rates of an XF pump? The more water you move, the more $ you are spending on electricity.

The only reason I considered XF (prior to realizing that you probably get no benefit unless you have 2.5" pipes) is that it was the "latest and greatest" pump. A few people even on this forum touted it.

If you did have the prerequisite plumbing (doesn't look like I do but someone can please confirm?), I would think you would benefit even if you didn't need highest flow rates. Wouldn't you be able to run an XF on lower RPM (therefore lower $$) to get the same GPM than the "standard" pump? (Obviously though you would have to factor in the savings vs the extra cost of the XF version.)

Of course this assumes that you already have put in 2.5" plumbing everywhere the pump will be moving water through.

Myself, evidence seem to suggest that I would get NO benefit from XF vs standard pumps and therefore the extra money spend on XF would be in vain.

 

[polyharmonic]

A large variable speed pump can often replace two or more other pumps, but you usually need to change the plumbing at the equipment pad fairly significantly, and may need a larger filter as well. With your setup, it is likely that you would need a fairly high end automations system to get a single pump to replace all four pumps and be controllable in any rational way. You would also be limited to running one of the extra functions at a time, i.e. spa, or waterfall, or in-floor but not two or more at the same time.

Thanks for your reply.

Thinking about it, I think the only two systems I would want to run on one pump would be filter+infloor cleaner. At night I have them running together most of the time anyway (infloor I run a couple hours less).

The thing though is that unfortunately the two pumps are on opposite ends. I've put up a picture of the equipment and the filter pump is right next to the filter on the far left but the infloor is on the far right. Not even sure if it is "hydraulically" possible or practical based on my existing plumbing setup.

IIUC, you would need to create a new "intake junction" that joins the pool/skimmer intake and infloor intake, then have a valve at at that junction with three positions (close infloor, close pool/skimmer, open both), a three position actuator (do those exist?) then have a control system that can control that actuator and control the flow pump RPM depending on mode (filter, infloor, both).

(Actually thinking further, I'm not sure I even know what I talking about. LOL)

Probably more simple to just have separate pumps like I have now. Probably cheaper too, those extra valves and actuators aren't that cheap after all. So if I were to run them together, it seems it would make sense financially only if I were to always run both which I'm not sure I always want to do.

 

[polyharmonic]

Okay after thinking through the replies, I've somewhat narrowed my choice of replacement pumps:

1 Intelliflo VS 011018: $869-$150 = $719
2 WhisperFlo 011486 WFDS-4 1 HP DUAL $646.48
3 WhisperFlo 011522 WFDS-6 1.5 HP DUAL $631.06 (price is slightly LESS than 1 HP??? typo maybe?)

The SuperFlo was mentioned as well. However isn't that best suited for 1.5" plumbing while WhisperFlo is best suited for 2" plumbing?
4 SuperFlo 340042 1 HP DUAL $423.07
5 SuperFlo 340043 1.5 HP DUAL $462.58
6 SuperFlo 340044 2HP DUAL $475.27

There isn't that much of a price difference between the SuperFlos so its just a matter of getting the one that will be "best".

One thing I forgot to add is that the filter pump needs to have enough "drive" to power my vacuum. Would some of these pumps pose an issue in that regard? (Before it died, 2HP WhisperFlo was good in that regard.)

Right now my thinking is this. If SuperFlo can work with my plumbing (see above schematics and pics) with "good" performance, then I might consider it for saving a few hundred dollars. However if the WhisperFlo is "needed", I might as well just spend the extra money and get the IntelliFlo since its really not much more.

I kind of like the IntelliFlo because why settle for 2-speed when you can get 8-speed and dial in exactly what you want/need? (I actually DON'T know what I want/need even in two-speed BTW, 1HP 1.5HP 2HP???). Also would be the obvious choice if I want/need to run during the day for various reasons. Also have the flexibility to run at different RPMs at different times of the day.

Kind of slightly leaning towards IntelliFlo right now.

Also unless someone can chime in otherwise, it seems that perhaps it is simplest and best just to keep my current 4-pump setup rather than try to combine two things running on one pump. If someone has a setup like that maybe they can chime in and explain their exact setup and how it works (like say running filter and infloor off of the same pump) as I'm curious as to how that even works in practice.

 

[jblizzle]

You want the smallest pump that will provide adequate flow ... they are cheaper to buy and cheaper to run. Any of the pump you listed will run a suction cleaner on high speed, none may have enough flow on low speed.

I am puzzled by your setup. So you have an in floor system which supposedly should keep the pool clean. But if you are having to run a suction cleaner, why even bother running the floor system at all?

Does the filter pump and in-floor system have separate drains/suction lines?

 

[polyharmonic]

You want the smallest pump that will provide adequate flow ... they are cheaper to buy and cheaper to run. Any of the pump you listed will run a suction cleaner on high speed, none may have enough flow on low speed.

I am puzzled by your setup. So you have an in floor system which supposedly should keep the pool clean. But if you are having to run a suction cleaner, why even bother running the floor system at all?

Does the filter pump and in-floor system have separate drains/suction lines?

Well there are actually two reasons to want to make sure I have high enough pressure. The most important one that I neglected to mention is backwashing pressure. Then there is vacuuming as well. The vacuum system I have simply just plugs into the skimmer basket opening at the bottom.

I'm not sure what that means it terms of separate drains/suction lines. Perhaps you can look at the schematic and tell me? I actually don't know myself!

The infloor doesn't work that well right now unfortunately. I think it might be due to some combination of leaks, low pressure, bad pop-up heads, pump, etc. (I already noticed a leak at one of the pipe joints, that might be the sole issue.) Therefore I have to use the vacuum now and then. I think I'll have to have someone come over to troubleshoot and fix it but noticed it wasn't working too well for some time.

 

[polyharmonic]

Single Pump (Multi-Function) vs Multiple Pumps (Single Function)

In my pool setup, I have four pumps for each function. They are:
1 Filter Pump
2 Spa Jet Pump
3 Waterfall Pump
4 Infloor Pump

So its a pretty simple and straightforward setup.

Some people have mentioned they have pumps that do multiple things. So I am wondering, what kinds of setup people have for this. (If people have pictures to share that would be great!)

Does that mean a bunch of extra valves and actuators? Do you need dual speed/VS pumps? Do you need "state-of-the-art" automatic control systems to handle it? (I myself have an old Jandy Aqualink RS and each function is a separate pump so there are no valves and actuators to coordinate. The only time valve actuators are involved is "pool mode" vs "spa mode" vs "spa drain".)

Also are there "hydraulic" issues? I mean if you combine functions into one pump, it has to converge into the single pump's single intake while two pumps will have two parallel intakes. So it would appear that the single pump would "cut-in-half" the intake volume (or need higher pressure to make up for it)?

I am asking because I am considering consolidating some functions into a single pump but am not sure whether it makes sense to do so. I am also curious as to how this is done and whether people prefer it or is it just "better" to have multiple pumps as I have?

Thanks for any insight!

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Single Pump (Multi-Function) vs Multiple Pumps (Single Function)

Like I said in your other thread my previous house had in-floor system, spa, waterfall, and wall returns with one single-speed pump.

There was one valve on the suction line to choose between pool (skimmer and floor) and spa.
There were 3 valves on the return side. One to select the spa or the pool. One to select the floor system or the wall returns. One to divert water to the waterfall.

No actuators, no automation. All manual control.

Had I to do over knowing what I do now, I would not have installed the in-floor system and gotten a 2 speed pump.

You never answered my questions in your other thread. Do the in-floor and filter pumps use the same drain? What about the waterfall pump? What pump runs through the spa heater?

I would be tempted to combine the in-floor and filter together and leave the spa pump to run the jets and the waterfall pump on their own. Although likely 1 pump could do everything, but your pipe setup will have to be creative though and you may not be able to run everything all at once.

 

[polyharmonic]

Re: Single Pump (Multi-Function) vs Multiple Pumps (Single Function)

Thanks for your reply. I recall you did mention this but not in this detail so this is helpful.

IIUC, your infloor and filter were basically combined into one system (both on or both off, you could not turn off the infloor but keep the filter running I guess)?

And you could choose to either return water to the pool or through the spa jets I guess?

Also I guess if you were running the waterfall, it meant not enough water for spa jets or filtering/infloor (or conversely your pump was "overpowered" when in filter/infloor only mode)?

I know you are no longer at that house but how well does this single-pump scheme work? In hindsight, is it better if you had multiple pumps instead (not necessarily four but more than one)? Or is the only change you would have made is a better pump (2-speed or VS)?

Also curious as to why you would NOT have installed the in-floor system?

 

[polyharmonic]

Re: Single Pump (Multi-Function) vs Multiple Pumps (Single Function)

You never answered my questions in your other thread. Do the in-floor and filter pumps use the same drain? What about the waterfall pump? What pump runs through the spa heater?

I honestly am not sure. It would appear from the schematics I posted that the waterfall used 3" pipes and is a completely separate system. But as for infloor and filter and spa heater, I'm just not sure. Perhaps you or someone can look at the schematics and tell me as I myself do not really know.

I would be tempted to combine the in-floor and filter together and leave the spa pump to run the jets and the waterfall pump on their own. Although likely 1 pump could do everything, but your pipe setup will have to be creative though and you may not be able to run everything all at once.

This is what I'm considering as it makes the most sense. I would want the spa jets and waterfall to remain separate but whenever you run the infloor you always want to to run the filter anyway so these aren't completely independent systems.

The only issue would be how to do it and whether there would be "control and/or "hydraulic" issues to doing so. Also I'm not sure I would want both systems to be fully combined as I might want to run the infloor for a fraction of the time that I run the filter. But this would mean that I would need a valve/actuator so that water is only "diverted" to the infloor when I want to run it, assuming this infloor "diversion" scheme is viable.

If anyone has the above setup (filter and infloor on one pump), I'd really like to know how it was done. (It sounds like in your old house they were one and the same system?)