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Thread: chlorine acid vanish, CYA vanished, bad pH reagent and non-ergonomic spoon

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    chlorine acid vanish, CYA vanished, bad pH reagent and non-ergonomic spoon

    Hi
    Am following TFP advice and pool is fine and pretty much matches PoolMath.
    FC 5
    CC 0
    pH 7.6
    TA 80
    CH 250
    CYA 30
    But it soaks up chlorine and acid like a sponge. Am using 5.25% bleach from local hardware.
    So set out to find stronger chlorine and found the HASA web site
    <http://media.hasapool.com/productpages/P-1.pdf>
    seems like an Ok company

    where I see recommended
    FC 1.5 to 3
    CYA 60 to 80

    the TFP chlorine/CYA chart shows at 60 CYA a min FC of 5

    so am confused? how to explain the different recommendations?

    Thank you
    Last edited by engrav; 07-15-2014 at 10:35 AM. Reason: change title
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    bobodaclown's Avatar
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    This site recommends that the CYA amount drives the FC amount.
    You can read more about it here:
    http://www.troublefreepool.com/conte...art-slam-shock
    http://www.troublefreepool.com/conte...at-is-tfpc-bbb
    more in-depth reading: http://www.troublefreepool.com/threa...rine-CYA-Chart
    17K Kidney Shaped Pool Concrete (Diamond Bright) Pool, 3/4 hp 2 speed 115V Sta-rite Duraglas PEA5D-180L/P2R5D-181L (Impeller C105-92PS Diffuser C1-216P), 1.5 piping, Pentair CC100 Filter , Heat Siphon 100K BTU Heat Pump Pool Heater, Flow meter Blue White Flowmeter Model No. F-30150P, Hayward Astrolight SP0581N, SWCG CalimarTitanium Edition TE45 , Dolphin Nautilus Plus with CleverClean, Lakeland Florida

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    A large number of companies publish recommended levels that date back 60 years or more to the time before anyone knew what CYA did. These outdated recommendations just get copied from place to place, and no one ever bothers to update them to actually work with CYA.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    thank you, I suspected same

    so then
    is there any way to reduce the powerful suck of chlorine and acid
    to reduce it from 1.5 gal 5.25% bleach and 1 pt acid / day
    or
    is that just the cost of doing business in the summer, the cost of enjoying grand baby giggles
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    Quote Originally Posted by engrav View Post
    thank you, I suspected same

    so then
    is there any way to reduce the powerful suck of chlorine and acid
    to reduce it from 1.5 gal 5.25% bleach and 1 pt acid / day
    or
    is that just the cost of doing business in the summer, the cost of enjoying grand baby giggles
    That's a BIG pool. 2.5 gallons of 5.25% is only 2.7 ppm/ day chlorine. That's not bad if the pool gets a lot of use
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    bobodaclown's Avatar
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    You shouldn't need to add acid daily (weekly), and chlorine is a daily chore, but looks like you have a SWCG, so that task should be done automatically. With a SWCG you should have a higher CYA level (70-80).
    17K Kidney Shaped Pool Concrete (Diamond Bright) Pool, 3/4 hp 2 speed 115V Sta-rite Duraglas PEA5D-180L/P2R5D-181L (Impeller C105-92PS Diffuser C1-216P), 1.5 piping, Pentair CC100 Filter , Heat Siphon 100K BTU Heat Pump Pool Heater, Flow meter Blue White Flowmeter Model No. F-30150P, Hayward Astrolight SP0581N, SWCG CalimarTitanium Edition TE45 , Dolphin Nautilus Plus with CleverClean, Lakeland Florida

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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    Quote Originally Posted by bobodaclown View Post
    You shouldn't need to add acid daily (weekly), and chlorine is a daily chore, but looks like you have a SWCG, so that task should be done automatically. With a SWCG you should have a higher CYA level (70-80).
    as above, Ok a BIG pool and it will suck up stuff, got it; so must figure out how to avoid ≥45 empty bleach bottles / month; will search for a 12.5% bleach method

    but I do need to add acid all the time; diary shows I added acid 6/26 6/28 6/30 7/2 7/4 and 7/7 (I guess not quite daily)

    SWCG? do not have that; if something wrong in my signature I should fix that
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Mod Squad JohnT's Avatar
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    With only 30ppm CYA, you will be losing a lot to the sun. Try raising it to 40ppm and see how it behaves.
    TFP Moderator
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    is there any way to reduce the powerful suck of chlorine and acid
    read "The ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry" up in Pool School.....all those answers are there. I will add that chlorine consumption is driven by two things ONLY. UV on the pool water and organic materials in the pool water. There is NOTHING else that consumes your chlorine and a principle that many of us "seasoned" pool nerds" often forget
    Dave S.
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh View Post
    read "The ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry" up in Pool School.....all those answers are there. I will add that chlorine consumption is driven by two things ONLY. UV on the pool water and organic materials in the pool water. There is NOTHING else that consumes your chlorine and a principle that many of us "seasoned" pool nerds" often forget
    Hi
    Have read it many times and in accord, moved from swamp with two dead rats to a pristine beauty (IMO)

    Have now moved from how to fix to how to reduce the acid/chlorine burden; cannot process 45 empty bleach bottles each month

    I like Richard320's signature

    Richard320 said is a BIG pool; ok then gotta just suck it up so to speak

    JohnT said bump CYA to 40; could do that

    several have said get higher % chlorine; could do that

    jblizzle said test OCLT at higher FC; could do that

    ABC says high TA cause up drift of pH but I do not have "high" TA
    but then 257WbyMag said in another thread let TA drop to 70 or 60; could do that

    there is a Rainbow turned off; could drop in a tab or two

    so will try all these tweaks thank you but
    after I jump in tomorrow to remind myself why I am doing this
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    My pool is 44k gallons. If you are on the bottle (bleach), you might consider going salt. Buying bleach and daily maintenance of a large pool takes a lot of effort. Standing by the pool and adding the bleach might not be that different than a small pool, but buying and hauling bleach bottles got old for me really quickly.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieH View Post
    My pool is 44k gallons. If you are on the bottle (bleach), you might consider going salt. Buying bleach and daily maintenance of a large pool takes a lot of effort. Standing by the pool and adding the bleach might not be that different than a small pool, but buying and hauling bleach bottles got old for me really quickly.
    that may be the long term answer

    but will try the little tweaks over the next weeks

    thanks again
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    Hi
    Just bought some 12.5% liquid chlorine. Should reduce the # of empty bottles.
    Nice store, no retail fancy stuff, just a pool service. And the man seemed quite knowledgeable. He also suggested SWG.

    pH of the stuff is 11.2
    this might explain my acid burden

    he said several of his commercial pools with liquid feeders also have acid feeders

    several tfp threads comment on this as well

    so maybe I do not have two problems, just one; jugs and jugs of liquid chlorine
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    The pH from adding liquid chlorine ends up being almost neutral. The pH is shifted back as the chlorine is consumed.

    Anything that aerates the water, including splashing, drives up pH and necessitates adding acid. Bubblers, waterfalls, negative edge pool, etc.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    so I set out to work on the tweaks to see if can fix too many empty bleach bottles and too many additions of acid

    started by tracking FC today, very sunny day

    here it is
    5:00 FC11
    8:45 FC 8
    12:00 FC 6
    1:44 FC 4
    3:45 FC 3.5
    5:50 FC 2.5

    I also had not tested CYA for a couple of weeks so did same and found that
    little black spot shows even if comparator full so not much CYA

    I don’t have liquid CYA out here so
    at this point I turned on the Rainbow with 5 tabs and setting 3 since the tabs have CYA

    then
    8:44 FC 2.5 (of course sun is gone now)

    will see what happens tomorrow

    as per another thread, my funky too intense pH color discussed in Oct last has returned so pH as the FC declined was doubtful; but it did not change as FC declined, funky at the start, funky at the end
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    with 5 tabs in the Rainbow and setting 3
    FC stayed between 2.5 and 4 all day, even with hot sun
    NO EMPTY BLEACH BOTTLES! PRAISE THE LORD!

    and CYA should have gone up a little (still < 30 however)

    will leave the Rainbow run all weekend and get some liquid CYA tomorrow in Bellevue
    also new bottle of R0004

    pH test remained funky all day so not reporting, did not change as FC went down, have ordered TF-100, then can compare to K-2005

    by the way, IMO the little blue spoon is poorly designed
    if you lay it flat side down, it is hard to pick up
    since the handle is flat, it is hard to rotate to dump
    since all other stuff is so slick, seems tftestkits.net oughta get a new spoon
    could be called the troublefreespoon
    Last edited by engrav; 07-11-2014 at 10:47 PM. Reason: another thought
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    I like the comment on the spoon. I have learned to always put it back in the box right side up so I can get it out.
    17500 Gal Above Ground, 1.5HP Dynamo Pump, 250# Pentair Sand filter with ZeoLite. Diver Dave Cleaner. TFP test kit w/SpeedStir, 7 Grandaughters and 1 Grandson swimming every week WooooHooo!!

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    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    You can modify your scoop to make it easier to handle. Either wrap the end in electrical tape so it gives it a little bulk and lifts it off the flat surface, or use a lighter to soften the end of the handle for about a second and bend it slightly up. Hold it in the desired position and blow on it to cool the plastic. It will hold the new shape. Just did this to mine as an example.
    pimp scoop small (600x800).jpg
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    Hi
    about the chlorine acid sink
    pool is doing fine with Rainbow on 3 with 5 tabs
    this AM FC 3.5 and no empty bleach bottles

    pH still funky but 7.8 with 3 drops
    CYA still <30

    will get new R0004 and liquid CYA today

    as for the spoon
    will try your bend it up fix

    person at TFtestkits replied no one else has complained so spoon unlikely to be changed
    but now there are 3 and 3≠ 0
    IG under fir trees and one cherry surrounded by grass built in 1979, 30k, plaster, old Sta-Rite HRPB30, 4.9 sq.ft, 20 GPM/sq.ft., but with new glass, new (in 2012) 1 HP WhisperFlo one speed, new (in 2013) Rainbow tab chlorinator attached at the top, old Maxi-Flo Heat Exchanger MF-260, Burnham V7 oil heater 245 MBH, new (in 2012) Compool to Easytouch, Taylor K-2005 and TF-100.

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    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
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    Re: confused about HASA web site info

    Well, he doesn't make the spoons and if you do a google search you will see there is not a lot of diversity of design in the tiny scoop market. That leaves it up to the user to make the modifications they need to optimize function.
    TFP Moderator
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