One bottom-line cost for maintenance?

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rangies3

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Jun 13, 2008
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This was originally in this topic. JasonLion

Hi Chem Geek:

I'm overwhelmed by the information. Do you have one simple chart somewhere that shows the costs for each sanitizing option for one bottom-line cost for maintenance per 10,000 gallons? You could put an asterisk next to each option, and explain under the chart that the reason unscented liquid bleach costs $X in the end is because with liquid bleach, you have to add this or that in X amount to get it right.

I'm a newbie to pools and everything, and I got a little lost in the post. I am trying very hard to know my pool and do what I need to keep it clean and safe. I'm among the millions who get frustrated in this process, trying to learn, and being told by every poolstore employee that I merely need to add PRODUCT X to fix everything for $100+, only to be told a week later that OH, now you need to spend $100+ on PRODUCT Y to counter the effects of product X, etc. It goes on and on.

Liquid chlorine can be found on sale for $1 a gallon, I have a 10K gallon pool, and I've dissolved lots and lots of Borax for algae control. I am getting stains which I think are from metals (a half-lemon rubbed over the stains didn't work, nor did granulated shock or algae killer). We are also getting stains from tree debris (acorns, twigs, etc.), and I have no idea how to eliminate phosphates in the BBB method (which B reduces phosphates?). Can you please offer me some advice?

I have found that a cheap pair of panty hose with the legs cut off and knotted, used as a skimmer-basket liner, actually works better than the expensive skimmer-basket liners and can be rinsed and reused much longer.

I appreciate your input.

Angie
 
Re: Cost Comparison of Chlorine Sources

While he may have a chart that outlines ideal/test environment numbers, there are quite a few factors that will influence the chart. Different conditions result in different results.

For example, we use a puck feeder system. I am aware of all the disadvantages of one (CYA build up, pH decrease due to acidic properties), but it just so happens both of those negatives turn into positives for me, since the water here is on the basic side (about pH 7.8 out of the tap), and CYA doesn't seem to hold here for us over the winter for some reason.

My best suggestion is to keep your own pool in mind when looking at the chart. If you have to adjust pH upwards quite a bit, and/or have a long swimming season in a mild climate, then the pucks would be a bad choice for you regardless of the cost, whereas for me, they actually save me money since I'm usually adding Muriatic Acid, and CYA to the pool, so using the pucks cuts down on that while providing chlorine, actually reducing the cost of ownership for me to use trichlor, instead of raising it as indicated by the chart.
 
Welcome to TFP!

Using bleach, and the entire BBB method, is probably the least expensive method of pool care. But it is difficult to put a single bottom line number on how much it will cost, because every pool is different.

None of the Bs reduce phosphates. For the most part, reducing phosphates is a waste of money. If you properly maintain your chlorine levels you won't get algae, regardless of your phosphate level.

For a good introduction to the BBB method of pool care and some good background on basic pool chemistry for beginners read my BBB for Beginners article in the May 2008 TFP newsletter, it is the first article, just below the Meet the Members announcement.

If you post some water test results, or tell us more about your specific situation, we can give you more specific advice. The stain question is puzzling, a photo would also help with that.
 
None of the Bs reduce phosphates. For the most part, reducing phosphates is a waste of money. If you properly maintain your chlorine levels you won't get algae, regardless of your phosphate level.

If you post some water test results, or tell us more about your specific situation, we can give you more specific advice. The stain question is puzzling, a photo would also help with that.[/quote]

Wow, lightning-fast answers!

I have read the article you mentioned. I've begun using BBB this summer (not sure how long, maybe two months). I'd been looking online for a cheaper alternative to the $120 average I spent at the pool store every time I went in.

We have a 10K gallon pool. We are in Texas, Dallas-area, so we have quite a long swimming season (especially since our pool is shallow). We have an enormous oak tree overhanging the pool. We've pruned, but still a LOT of debris blows from it (spring is a whole different ball game than the rest of the year). Right now, it is green acorns and the small twigs attached to the acorns that leave a reddish-brown spot on the pool where each drops. The stains form overnight. Also, our pool is plaster-lined with a kind of grainy surface (the granules are blue). There are many, many smooth spots where the previous owners scrubbed the granules off in an effort (it appears) to remove stains. These smooth spots are magnets for slight discoloration. In-between the granules, I'm seeing a black stain. It's very sparse - you have to look closely to see it. I've added algaecide for black algae, with no results. I've shocked, scrubbed, and tried everything from scrub brushes, pool brushes, comet, bleach, and scotch-brite pads to get in there and remove those tiny black spots. Nothing works. I was going to buy a stain kit, but the pool store employee told me to try rubbing a half a lemon on the stains to see if they would lift. I did, and nothing happened. I THINK I remember him saying that if the lemon didn't work, it was metal. That's why I suspect metal.

The pool store folks also told me that PhosFree would help with staining from organic matter (such as tree residue, people swimming, etc.) and reduce the day-to-day staining. I have dissolved my seven boxes of Borax in the pool to prevent algae. It seems to be working. We had a mild bout with algae, even though I had added two boxes of borax earlier in the season (and had dumped a ton of the stuff the pool store recommends to "prevent algae" for a year - twice). A customer at the store told me to go straight for the black algae killer, otherwise prepare for buying lots and lots of algaecide (I'd already gone through a gallon of algaecide over a month, with the algae returning). After using the black algaecide and seven boxes of borax, I haven't seen major algae - just the occasional mild greening that happens every few days no matter what. I add a half-gallon of unscented bleach every two days.

What next?
 
I forgot to mention: the black spots are under water and so tiny that I can't photograph it without a good underwater camera. I don't have one.

I have seven-way test kit strips (are these recommended?). My chlorine goes away every day if I don't add the bleach every other day. I have a chlorinator stacked with pucks (it doesn't seem to be chlorinating, but I've tested the valve and it's good, and water is bubbling in it when the pump is running, so I don't know what's up with that). I also keep two pucks in a floating chlorinator, always. The chlorine level is troubling, the way it's never present on the strips (tried several brands). It seems like the chlorinator, wide open, should do the trick. Since it isn't, the valve is good, and I see water flow in it, you'd think that the combo of this with the floating chlorine-carrier would be adequate to supplement. The pucks are dissolving in both! The water testing at the stores (I go to two to compare results) shows no chlorine, every other chemical is fine, and once there were phosphates which they said would eat up my chlorine as much as algae or sunlight. I added PhosFree, my chlorine was visible for awhile, and now it isn't. I haven't brought in a water sample to test for phosphates in awhile. I was hoping to find a more cost-effective replacement to PhosFree. Thoughts?
 
My first guess which is based on limited info, is that your water balance is completely off - you very likely have extremely high levels of CYA which is rendering your chlorine ineffective.

Strips are not very accurate. But please post your results anyway. It would be a good idea to have a local pool store test your water for comparison purposes. Then I would recommend you invest in a good test kit, either the Taylor K2006 or the TF100. I own the TF-100 and am very happy with it, best purchase for my pool I ever made.

Every pool is different, as was stated above, my pool, 13,500 gallons AGP, I spend about $15 a month on bleach, haven't had to add anything but bleach since I found BBB a year ago. Some people will spend more, some a little less. There are just too many factors to give a bottom line number.

You should update your profile in your "user control panel" to edit your "signature" to put your pool specs and equipment, so that they are easier to find when people are reading your posts.

Test results! Then we can give you better advice.... Welcome! :wave:
 
As the other posters said, start by getting a good test kit since regardless of chlorine source this is what can have you take charge of your pool and prevent algae with the lowest cost.

The bottom line on chlorine sources is that bleach, chlorinating liquid, and Cal-Hypo are roughly in the same ball park where in different regions of the country you may find one less expensive than the other. However, Cal-Hypo increases Calcium Hardness (CH). Not very far behind in overall cost is Trichlor which initially seems to be the least expensive, but you need to frequently raise the pH (at additional cost) that gets lowered because Trichlor is very acidic. Also, Trichlor increases Cyanuric Acid (CYA) levels.

All other sources of chlorine, Dichlor and especially Lithium Hypochlorite, are much more expensive. Dichlor also increases CYA levels.

The only real advantage to Trichlor is its convenience since it slowly dissolves in either a floating feeder or an inline chlorinator.

Because of the above facts, the primary source of chlorine for most people who want the lowest cost with the least side effects is either bleach or chlorinating liquid, though many supplement or occasionally use Cal-Hypo or Trichlor depending on the specifics of their pool situation. There is generally no need for anything else -- no algaecide, no phosphate removers, no clarifiers, no flocculants, no enzymes, no metal ions, nothing except sometimes adding some acid to maintain pH. So long as you have a good test kit and keep tabs on the various levels, you can pretty much use whatever source of chlorine you want though you may need to dilute the water or backwash more frequently when using Cal-Hypo or Trichlor (or Dichlor).

The regular use of algaecides or phosphate removers is generally only necessary if one doesn't manage their pool's CYA level such as valuing convenience over cost and just using Trichlor tabs/pucks exclusively.

Richard
 
What is the ingredients in the black algae treatment you used? Many of them are copper based and copper stains that are black are almost impossible to remove except by acid washing.
 
The algaecide has 3% copper, and 26+% dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride. My test strips today (I did add about a gallon of bleach in the evening, and 12 oz. of algaecide this morning because there was TONS of little tree debris in the bottom of the pool when we woke up) show no FC, no TC, hardness at about 500 ppm, alkalinity is somewhere between 80 - 120, and CYA is between 30-50. The pH on the strips is hard to read: the low end is a pale orange, the high end is dark neon pink, and my strip colors always read light neon pink (which doesn't match any of the squares which I'm supposed to compare it to). When I take water samples to the pool store, they usually tell me my chemicals are fine, and once when I went in I had them test phosphates and they were high (that's when I used phosfree). That's been about a month ago. They have no answer for me as to why my pool is losing chlorine.

It held chlorine fairly well after using the phosfree.

Now, I'm back to running the in-line chlorinator wide open, floating pucks in the floatie-feeder, and adding liquid bleach in the evenings after the sun is down. How can there be no chlorine in the morning when we don't get direct sun on our shady pool until late afternoon?
 
One thing that sticks out at me.....

My CYA read 30-50 on test strips, before I found TFP. Once I had my water tested correctly, my CYA ended up being over 100+.

Have your CYA tested another way and compare....just to be sure.
 

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rangies3 said:
The algaecide has 3% copper, and 26+% dimethyl benzyl ammonium chloride. My test strips today (I did add about a gallon of bleach in the evening, and 12 oz. of algaecide this morning because there was TONS of little tree debris in the bottom of the pool when we woke up) show no FC, no TC, hardness at about 500 ppm, alkalinity is somewhere between 80 - 120, and CYA is between 30-50. The pH on the strips is hard to read: the low end is a pale orange, the high end is dark neon pink, and my strip colors always read light neon pink (which doesn't match any of the squares which I'm supposed to compare it to). When I take water samples to the pool store, they usually tell me my chemicals are fine, and once when I went in I had them test phosphates and they were high (that's when I used phosfree). That's been about a month ago. They have no answer for me as to why my pool is losing chlorine.

It held chlorine fairly well after using the phosfree.

Now, I'm back to running the in-line chlorinator wide open, floating pucks in the floatie-feeder, and adding liquid bleach in the evenings after the sun is down. How can there be no chlorine in the morning when we don't get direct sun on our shady pool until late afternoon?
Click to expand...

I highlighted a few areas of your post and will take them in order but first YOU NEED TO GET A GOOD TEST KIT AND START TESTING YOUR OWN WATER, THE STRIPS ARE GARBAGE AND THE POOL STORE WANTS YOU TO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY ON UNNECESSARY CHEMICALS LIKE PHOSPHATE REMOVER!!!!!!!!!! (I happen to work in a pool store and I know what goes on.)
Sencod, YOU NEED A GOOD TEST KIT, I cannot stress this enough!!!!!
Third, you have used a copper based algaecide. Copper can and will stain a pool, especially when you don't or can't manage your water balance (which from your posts, is very evident that you cannot). Copper stains can be several different colors but black stains are very common and the most difficult to get rid of.

Finally, I will address both the last two highlighted areas together. I am going to bet that your CYA is way too high. You pool exhibits all the symptoms of an overstabilized pool. You are running your feeder wide open AND using a floater and adding bleach at night yet you cannot hold chlorine overnight. This means you are fighting something and there just is not enough active chlorine in the water to handle it. I am making an educated guess that your pool is overstabilzied and there just is not enough FC in the water to compensate for the high CYA. I am also going to guess you have a cartridge filter.

Get a GOOD set of tests results, ditch the strips, they are useless for water balancing, and repost and we can take it from there. Don't accept the pool store telling you you are 'fine' or 'in range'. Get the numbers! Better yet, GET A GOOD TEST KIT AND DO IT YOURSELF!!!!!!
category/pool-school/pool_test_kit_comparison


EDIT: I see that you do have a cartridge filter. I have no doubt in my mind that your CYA is way too high!!!!!! Cartridge filters and trichlor feeders and floaters do not play well together and, IMHO, should NEVER be installed together. It's a sure fire recipe for overstabilization in a very short period of time!!!!!

Also, stop the copper algaecide! It will only make the stains worse. Copper is what turns hair green, btw.
CYA tests on strips are notorious for being very inaccurate. I have tested my own pool with 5 different brands of test strips once and got CYA readings from 0 ppm to 150 ppm (only one of the strips was in the correct ballpark. My CYA was actually at 70 ppm (verified by both the melamine precipitation test used in the Taylor and Troublefree Test Kits and the LaMotte colorimeter we use at work.)
 
Hi again,

I just wanted to add to that about the CYA. There was one instance last year, when I went to have the pool store test my water....I was still new to this BBB stuff, it was right after I had found TFP and I was still very confused. I had been using strips and the strips said my water was all normal except for the chlorine (I couldn't keep any FC) and my PH was low. My kids hair was turning green, and I had these stains in the bottom of my pool that wouldn't go away. I knew my chlorine was going in there, I had an inline chlorinator/ionizer called "Pool Frog" and it was turned all the way up so I KNEW chlorine was being put in my pool. Yet it wasn't registering on my test strips....

Anyway, to make a VERY long story short I found TFP, bought a cheapy HTH 6-way test kit from Wal-mart, and tested my own water. The results said my CYA was over 100. :shock:

When the pool store ran my tests, they didn't check the CYA. I knew enough at that point, I questioned them why they didn't run the test. They told me, and I quote: "You don't need to worry about that, it doesn't matter".

I asked them to run a test, and their test said my CYA was 107. They also said it was fine up to 200 ppm, which is a total crock. :grrrr: Anything over 50 for a regular pool is too high, anything over 100 is impossible to effectively manage.

Do not trust the advice from a pool store employee that tells you "everything's fine". :hammer: Request a printout of the results or write the numbers down yourself.

I learned the hard way, and the expensive way. I now trust the experts here at TFP. And I have a crystal clear pool with no stains or algae to show for it! :mrgreen:
 
I got the "It doesn't matter" line about CYA from a pool store. I had just bought my pool, and was anxiously waiting it's arrival. I had read some on the net about pools but hadn't found this site yet. Anyway, I was getting chemicals to start my pool. They sold me: pool frog with it's triclor bac-pacs and copper based algaecide, a bag of stabilizer, and a few bags of di-chlor shock (which I was told to use weekly) to get me started. :shock: And then they said "oh, yeah, you'll need these" and gave me some test strips that measured TA, Ph, and chlorine. I had read something about CYA on the net, and asked about testing that. The salesman said "don't worry about that; it doesn't matter." This is the same salesman that told me I would need to use the pool frog's algaecide as a preventative right after I filled my pool because "everyone in this area of the country gets algae." :shock:

I'm glad I found this site after I used only the algaecide, one bac-pac, the stabilizer, and two bags of shock. I'm shudder to think of what my CYA would have been like after only a month or two of following that plan! (Not to mention my bacteria level; they tell froggy users to have about .5 ppm chlorine residual.)
 
OK: I got out and bought a test kit from Leslie's. Here are the results:

FC = 1
TC = 2
pH = 7.2
CH = 590 ppm
TA = 130 ppm
CYA = 100 ppm

The kit mentions using "unstabilized chlorine" for a time to reduce CYA. What is this? The other option listed was partially draining. The PS employee said that using a pump if I have to drain could be useful, because the CYA stays toward the top of the pool. Is this true? What about that CH number?
 
rangies3 said:
OK: I got out and bought a test kit from Leslie's. Here are the results:

FC = 1
TC = 2
pH = 7.2
CH = 590 ppm
TA = 130 ppm
CYA = 100 ppm

The kit mentions using "unstabilized chlorine" for a time to reduce CYA. What is this? The other option listed was partially draining. The PS employee said that using a pump if I have to drain could be useful, because the CYA stays toward the top of the pool. Is this true? What about that CH number?
Click to expand...

NO, that's not true, CYA doesn't "stay at the top". But, good advice to partially drain the pool, it will reduce the CH number which is high, as well as the CYA. That being said, test your fill water, because if it's high in CH that won't help much.... Try draining a few inches below the skimmer, and then refill, and then retest.

You have a CC of 1, which means you need to shock. I would suggest doing the drain first otherwise you'll be wasting an awful lot of bleach to bring it to the appropriate shock level according to your CYA. (See the chart in my sig.)
 
We do have "hard water" in Dallas. Do you think that means we have more calcium? If so, what else will remove excess calcium? I understand that the calcium build-up can harm the pool equipment, as well as the pool surface.
 
Not really sure, there may be a trick with a water softener, I think someone suggested renting a portable unit or something? Hopefully someone with more knowledge about that will be along.

I think yours is high, but scaling happens when the PH gets high too....so I think? that as long as you keep your PH in range, you'll be alright. Hoping! that someone comes along and confirms this..... :oops:
 
I read, too, about the water softener somewhere in the posts. I haven't looked around yet: have three small kids and a plumber working at our house, so it isn't an ideal time to run an errand anyway. I'm just running the leaky waterfall while draining. I figure if the chlorine is this low (and I did shock yesterday), it won't hurt the lawn. I'm going to move the hose end (the water "exit" for the pool) around the landscaping a bit. :lol: May as well save a little money somewhere in all of this! Our pool has set us back over $3K in the year we've lived here (replacing pumps, cartridges, buying chemicals, multiple pressure tests to find the leaks, tearing down and rebuilding the waterfall to test the 14 pipes back there for leaks, etc.), and it still leaks, stains (everyone has to deal with that sometime, I'm sure), gets ants in the shrinking grout, appears to be losing its plaster lining, and has electronic controls spaside and indoors which are flippant about whether or not they will work or if they will send a "ghost signal" out today to drain it (this happened so many times we disconnected the spaside link, and that reduced the number of ghost drainings greatly). It's a beautiful pool, but the Polaris, the design, the leaks, and the problems have cost us sooooooo much.
 

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