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Thread: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

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    Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    So my pool has been up and running for just about 3 weeks now. Specs and build link in my thread, but short story is 8,000 gal Wet Edge pebble / plaster pool. SWG but not running on salt due to Wet Edge warranty. It was plastered three weeks ago yesterday, filled three weeks ago today and shocked and started three weeks ago tomorrow.

    So I had a few finish imperfections with my Wet Edge, to the point where I had both the PB and the Wet Edge installer out prior to filling. One of the types of imperfections was some buildup of the plaster / polymer to where it obscured the pebble in some spots. We have brushed it over the last few weeks but those spots have not come out (others have).

    So yesterday I came home from lunch to find one of the Wet Edge installer's crew in the pool with a mask on, holding a bottle of muriatic acid. Apparently they are burning and scrubbing the excess plaster off with acid. Next to his partner on the deck are FOUR EMPTY BOTTLES of acid. Yes, they poured that much acid in an 8,000 gallon pool.

    I only had a small taylor kit that tested FC and pH and I did a quick test before I left. FC was 0 and pH was off the scale low. Yesterday, coincidentally, my Lamotte Color Q Pro 7 came from Amazon. Should have been here earlier but that's a different story. When I came home, I dropped some of my last remaining shock in the pool, as I didn't want algae to take hold (and I have no bleach, yes, I know I need bleach, but I was hoping to get away with not buying any until the SWG went on). As expected, pH is through the floor. I ran the pump on 70% until about 10:00 last night, then dropped it to 30% overnight. Results this morning:

    FC = 4.14
    TC = 5.02
    pH = LO (less than 6.5)
    TA = LO (no less than given)
    CH = 108
    CYA = 37.

    Water is still crystal clear. So I'm guessing a nice large dose of soda will do? I will plug it into the pool math calc today and go that route. I have a Leslie's nearby, what is the best thing to buy there that won't junk up anything else?

    Thanks!
    8,000 gallon in-ground gunnite geometric. Wet Edge Satin Matrix. Triple overflow water feature.
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Arm and Hammer baking soda. Sometimes wallyworld sells big bags of it. You might need a couple!

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    Mod Squad tim5055's Avatar
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Stay away from Leslie's for the sake of your wallet.

    Hold off on Baking Soda.

    You want to adjust the pH up quickly. You want soda ash now.

    TA is less important and will come up with the soda ash.

    Here is what you want direct from Pool School
    Raising PH

    PH can be raised in three ways: borax, soda ash, and aeration. Borax is usually the best choice. Borax raises the PH and also raises the TA level just a little. If your TA level is low soda ash will raise both the PH and TA levels. If your TA level is high, aeration is best as it will not raise the TA level at all. However, aeration is rather slow compared to the other two.

    Borax is available as 20 Mule TeamŪ Borax Natural Laundry Booster. It is sold in the laundry detergent section of most larger grocery stores and some big box stores. Borax is best added by pre-dissolving it in a bucket of water and then pouring that slowly in front of a return.

    Soda ash is available as ARM & HAMMERŪ Super Washing Soda Detergent Booster. Do not confuse this with ARM & HAMMERŪ laundry detergent! It is sold in the laundry detergent section of most larger grocery stores and some big box stores. It is also sold by pool stores under various names, including PH Increaser, PH Up, Balance Pak 200, etc. Soda ash is best added by pre-dissolving it in a bucket of water and then pouring that slowly in front of a return.

    Aeration can be provided by a SWG, spa jets, waterfall, fountain, return pointed up so it breaks the surface, air compressor, kids splashing, rain, etc. It can take some time for aeration to raise the PH. The higher your TA level, the faster aeration will work.


    TA - Total Alkalinity

    TA is raised by adding baking soda. For directions on lowering TA see How to Lower Total Alkalinity.

    Baking soda is common household baking soda from the baking aisle of any grocery store. If you can find them, larger containers are less expensive per pound and easier to handle. Some larger grocery stores sell baking soda in 4 lb boxes and some big box stores have it in 12 lb bags. Baking soda can be added by spreading it across the surface of the deep end of the pool.
    As to the shock (I'm assuming it's a bagged granular shock), you have it as well as the need to bring you CYA up so don't feel bad about using it. This web site is not for or against any specific product, but rater everyone is interested in teaching you how specific things will act in your pool. Until your SWG is on line you will want your CYA in the 40ish range and once the SWG goes on line you will move that up to around 70. You have the overhead to raise your CYA so don't feel bad about the shock.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Baking soda and borax or washing soda.

    I'd alternate and work up by steps. First, try to raise TA halfway to your goal with baking soda. Give it half an hour and brush or vacuum to help mix it and lose some of the plaster dust they undoubtedly created. Retest. Then add borax or washing soda to move pH up. Another half an hour and get things mixed with the brush. Then retest. Probably need to fix pH again a couple times. When pH starts to look close, move TA closer again. Then go back and fix pH. Then TA. Just keep working up by steps.

    Baking Soda raises TA without a lot of pH change. Borax raises pH without a lot of TA change. Washing Soda (Pool store sells it as Soda Ash) raises both. You can look at Effects of Adding Chemicals down low on poolmath and see what each does. For the huge changes you'll be making, it will only be a very coarse estimate. As the quantities get smaller and things get closer to balanced, the estimate will be better.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Before doing anything, I'd contact the builder first. It sounds like they're fully aware of the procedure and planning on raising the pH as the next step. Keep an open line of communication!

    Read this article for more info.

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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
    Before doing anything, I'd contact the builder first. It sounds like they're fully aware of the procedure and planning on raising the pH as the next step. Keep an open line of communication!

    Read this article for more info.
    No, they're not planning on raising the pH. This wasn't part of the plaster startup. They added about 2 gallons of muriatic acid to the startup to counteract the effect of the curing plaster. I have been monitoring pH as discussed with the PB and last week it crept up into the higher end of the scale so I added about 1/2 quart of muriatic and it fell a bit. I was just getting ready to add another half a quart.

    This was definitely not part of the plan.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard320 View Post
    Baking soda and borax or washing soda.

    I'd alternate and work up by steps. First, try to raise TA halfway to your goal with baking soda. Give it half an hour and brush or vacuum to help mix it and lose some of the plaster dust they undoubtedly created. Retest. Then add borax or washing soda to move pH up. Another half an hour and get things mixed with the brush. Then retest. Probably need to fix pH again a couple times. When pH starts to look close, move TA closer again. Then go back and fix pH. Then TA. Just keep working up by steps.

    Baking Soda raises TA without a lot of pH change. Borax raises pH without a lot of TA change. Washing Soda (Pool store sells it as Soda Ash) raises both. You can look at Effects of Adding Chemicals down low on poolmath and see what each does. For the huge changes you'll be making, it will only be a very coarse estimate. As the quantities get smaller and things get closer to balanced, the estimate will be better.
    Thanks for this. I will head out today to grab the chemicals I need. Hopefully I can find the Soda Ash at my local grocery. I'm glad you wrote the need to adjust TA first as I would have probably attacked the pH with the soda ash first.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tim5055 View Post
    Stay away from Leslie's for the sake of your wallet.

    Hold off on Baking Soda.

    You want to adjust the pH up quickly. You want soda ash now.

    TA is less important and will come up with the soda ash.

    Here is what you want direct from Pool School


    As to the shock (I'm assuming it's a bagged granular shock), you have it as well as the need to bring you CYA up so don't feel bad about using it. This web site is not for or against any specific product, but rater everyone is interested in teaching you how specific things will act in your pool. Until your SWG is on line you will want your CYA in the 40ish range and once the SWG goes on line you will move that up to around 70. You have the overhead to raise your CYA so don't feel bad about the shock.

    Yes it was bagged granular shock.
    8,000 gallon in-ground gunnite geometric. Wet Edge Satin Matrix. Triple overflow water feature.
    Hayward - TCell 15 SWG; TriStar VS Main Pump; SwimClear 425 Cartridge Filter; ProLogic 4 Automation, SuperII Water Feature Pump; Polaris 280 w/ Booster
    Link to my Build

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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard320 View Post
    Baking soda and borax or washing soda.

    I'd alternate and work up by steps. First, try to raise TA halfway to your goal with baking soda. Give it half an hour and brush or vacuum to help mix it and lose some of the plaster dust they undoubtedly created. Retest. Then add borax or washing soda to move pH up. Another half an hour and get things mixed with the brush. Then retest. Probably need to fix pH again a couple times. When pH starts to look close, move TA closer again. Then go back and fix pH. Then TA. Just keep working up by steps.

    Baking Soda raises TA without a lot of pH change. Borax raises pH without a lot of TA change. Washing Soda (Pool store sells it as Soda Ash) raises both. You can look at Effects of Adding Chemicals down low on poolmath and see what each does. For the huge changes you'll be making, it will only be a very coarse estimate. As the quantities get smaller and things get closer to balanced, the estimate will be better.
    I note that CH is low as well.

    Should I just concentrate on getting TA and pH correct and then worry about CH afterward? I would think that to be prudent.

    Also, what will this do to my FC level? My FC level was about 3 before all this acid got dumped in. Will this cause me to need chlorine?
    8,000 gallon in-ground gunnite geometric. Wet Edge Satin Matrix. Triple overflow water feature.
    Hayward - TCell 15 SWG; TriStar VS Main Pump; SwimClear 425 Cartridge Filter; ProLogic 4 Automation, SuperII Water Feature Pump; Polaris 280 w/ Booster
    Link to my Build

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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Quote Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
    I note that CH is low as well.

    Should I just concentrate on getting TA and pH correct and then worry about CH afterward? I would think that to be prudent.

    Also, what will this do to my FC level? My FC level was about 3 before all this acid got dumped in. Will this cause me to need chlorine?
    Yup, work on TA & pH.

    With 40 CYA 3 FC is the bare minimum you want to be at. You really should be targeting 5, not letting it ever drop below 3.
    TFP Moderator 39 X 18 23,000(ish) freeform gunite; built 2007ish; Pentair Triton II TR100 600lb Sand filter; 2 HP Pentair pump with 2.2 HP AO Smith single speed motor; 2 skimmers, 1 main drain, 4 returns w/waterfall, Stenner 45MHP2 3GPD running@ 60% - 15 gal Tank; heated by the sun CYA 200+ when I started - 50 now. Dolphin Supreme M5 Pool Cleaner. Hot Springs SX Spa, 285 gallon

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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Quote Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
    I note that CH is low as well.

    Should I just concentrate on getting TA and pH correct and then worry about CH afterward? I would think that to be prudent.

    Also, what will this do to my FC level? My FC level was about 3 before all this acid got dumped in. Will this cause me to need chlorine?
    On the CH level, it probably will come up on its own. My fill water in the Memorial area is about 150 ppm CH and I'm constantly battling rising CH. Last I checked about a month ago it was 500. I'm guessing your fill water is similar to mine.
    9,200 gal. Gunite Luna Quartz French Grey pool with spill over spa, two fountains on tanning ledge (rarely used)
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    So, came home tonight and tested before starting. FC : 0.17. TC: 0.21. pH and TA still off the charts.

    Added 3 lbs of baking soda and 40 oz of 8% bleach. FC. Ran for an hour or so. FC : 2.45, TCL: 2.88, pH and TA still low. Added 3 lb 7 oz of washing soda. Gonna let it run a while.

    Is it normal for the FC to drop so much with the pH so low? Or have I acquired algae?it was probably at 0 for no more than 4 hours yesterday and you saw what it was this morning.


    8,000 gallon in-ground gunnite geometric. Wet Edge Satin Matrix. Triple overflow water feature.
    Hayward - TCell 15 SWG; TriStar VS Main Pump; SwimClear 425 Cartridge Filter; ProLogic 4 Automation, SuperII Water Feature Pump; Polaris 280 w/ Booster
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    I realized that in my initial post I neglected to say that they were gallon bottles of muriatic acid. Implied but...
    8,000 gallon in-ground gunnite geometric. Wet Edge Satin Matrix. Triple overflow water feature.
    Hayward - TCell 15 SWG; TriStar VS Main Pump; SwimClear 425 Cartridge Filter; ProLogic 4 Automation, SuperII Water Feature Pump; Polaris 280 w/ Booster
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Quote Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
    So, came home tonight and tested before starting. FC : 0.17. TC: 0.21. pH and TA still off the charts.

    Added 3 lbs of baking soda and 40 oz of 8% bleach. FC. Ran for an hour or so. FC : 2.45, TCL: 2.88, pH and TA still low. Added 3 lb 7 oz of washing soda. Gonna let it run a while.

    Is it normal for the FC to drop so much with the pH so low? Or have I acquired algae?it was probably at 0 for no more than 4 hours yesterday and you saw what it was this morning.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Losing 4 is not a huge daily loss. The guys in the pool probably left behind a lot of organics. Also, I don't believe your tester is accurate to 2 decimal places.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    So finally got a reading on the TA. A whopping 5 but at least it's not "LO" anymore. Added another 55 oz box of washing soda. FC is at 2.8. Will run the pool on 50% overnight and let it stabilize. We shall see. Hoping to get a **** pH reading tomorrow!
    8,000 gallon in-ground gunnite geometric. Wet Edge Satin Matrix. Triple overflow water feature.
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    It's really worth keeping your FC level a bit higher -- treat 3 as the minimum you never want to get below, and aim for 5.
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Yeah, trying, just trying not to do too much at once.

    Added some additional bleach and more washing soda last night and success! This morning TA is up to 50, pH actually registers now at a whopping 6.5. Was in a hurry so I didn't test anything else. FC was at 4 and change from
    What I remember and most importantly hadn't dropped overnight!


    Added another 1.75 lbs of washing soda and will re test at lunch but I can actually see us in the pool this weekend! Yay!


    The good news is that next Tuesday the SWG can go on.


    Thanks to all for the advice. Will report back later.


    8,000 gallon in-ground gunnite geometric. Wet Edge Satin Matrix. Triple overflow water feature.
    Hayward - TCell 15 SWG; TriStar VS Main Pump; SwimClear 425 Cartridge Filter; ProLogic 4 Automation, SuperII Water Feature Pump; Polaris 280 w/ Booster
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    It appears my enthusiasm was misplaced.

    Came home this morning to a cloudy pool with a decidedly green tint.

    Is this an algae bloom?


    8,000 gallon in-ground gunnite geometric. Wet Edge Satin Matrix. Triple overflow water feature.
    Hayward - TCell 15 SWG; TriStar VS Main Pump; SwimClear 425 Cartridge Filter; ProLogic 4 Automation, SuperII Water Feature Pump; Polaris 280 w/ Booster
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Ok, so home for lunch and ran another panel of tests.

    FC = 4.15 (only dropped 0.5 in 4 hours)
    TCL = 4.16 (vs. 4.71 this morning)
    CC = 0
    pH = 7.0
    TA = 75
    CH = test void, added an extra drop and didn't re-run.
    CYA = 43.

    So according to pool math, 3-7 is a good range for FC. To be safe, I set a goal of 7 and added a quart of bleach as pool math indicated that would bring it to 7.

    Not sure what the green color and cloudiness are from if not algae. But if I did have algae, wouldn't my FC go down more than 0.5 in 4 hours?

    I kicked the filter on high and that did get rid of some of the cloudiness. Only thing I can think of is that the robot cleaner ran this morning and perhaps stirred up any soda that was on the bottom? I was brushing it last night as I was adding so..... not sure.

    I didn't add any wash soda as the TA and pH are now at least tolerable and don't want it to overshoot. But where is the green coming from?
    8,000 gallon in-ground gunnite geometric. Wet Edge Satin Matrix. Triple overflow water feature.
    Hayward - TCell 15 SWG; TriStar VS Main Pump; SwimClear 425 Cartridge Filter; ProLogic 4 Automation, SuperII Water Feature Pump; Polaris 280 w/ Booster
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    It's possible the pH change caused something in the water to change colour but first thought would be algae (in which case you will need to SLAM once you get pH in range). At minimum I would test the FC (algae will usually make it drop quickly), raise FC to ~10 and then see what happens over the next few hours with the pump running.

    EDIT - I posted before reading your most recent post. Yeah, I would expect FC to be going down more if you had algae too but you didn't mention adding any other chemicals that could trigger a colour change. Maybe the pool builders added algaecide or something ?

    I would take the FC up to SLAM level, watch it closely for the next day, and move immediately into a SLAM if you see it going down quickly, but I'm not sure if that would get in the way if the problem turned out to be metals etc.. causing a colour change. To me cloudy => green says algae though.

    SLAM level for CYA=45 is FC=18.
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgman View Post
    It's possible the pH change caused something in the water to change colour but first thought would be algae (in which case you will need to SLAM once you get pH in range). At minimum I would test the FC (algae will usually make it drop quickly), raise FC to ~10 and then see what happens over the next few hours with the pump running.

    EDIT - I posted before reading your most recent post. Yeah, I would expect FC to be going down more if you had algae too but you didn't mention adding any other chemicals that could trigger a colour change. Maybe the pool builders added algaecide or something ?

    I would take the FC up to SLAM level, watch it closely for the next day, and move immediately into a SLAM if you see it going down quickly, but I'm not sure if that would get in the way if the problem turned out to be metals etc.. causing a colour change. To me cloudy => green says algae though.

    SLAM level for CYA=45 is FC=18.
    The thing that gets me is that the FC dropped only 0.5 in 4 hours of moderate sun. I would expect higher with a bunch of biologic activity.

    I increased the FC up to 8, which is the max level the pool calc says for my CYA. Don't want to slam it just yet if I'm overreacting to something else. I have the filter on high and the pool vac running a few hours this afternoon. We shall see.

    SIGH. Really want to be in the pool this weekend!
    8,000 gallon in-ground gunnite geometric. Wet Edge Satin Matrix. Triple overflow water feature.
    Hayward - TCell 15 SWG; TriStar VS Main Pump; SwimClear 425 Cartridge Filter; ProLogic 4 Automation, SuperII Water Feature Pump; Polaris 280 w/ Booster
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    Re: Ugh, screwed by my Pool Builder!

    Also to note, I am still within the first 30 days of my plaster / wet edge installation. I read on here I should not slam it. I was doing well at maintaining good FC and pH levels before this acid disaster. Could it be that the low low pH and the acid on the finish got some of the color out of the finish (blue) and is affecting the water, and that it's not algae at all?
    8,000 gallon in-ground gunnite geometric. Wet Edge Satin Matrix. Triple overflow water feature.
    Hayward - TCell 15 SWG; TriStar VS Main Pump; SwimClear 425 Cartridge Filter; ProLogic 4 Automation, SuperII Water Feature Pump; Polaris 280 w/ Booster
    Link to my Build

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