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Thread: Help! Need new equipment

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    Help! Need new equipment

    Hello, I have been an avid fan of this forum for a long time, you have helped through a lot of repairs...thank you.

    I really need help on choosing replacement equipment. Please bear with me while I give you some background information, sorry if I ramble or jump around too much....First my 1hp pool motor died, then, after I put my 1.5hp spa motor w/wet end where my 1hp used to be (same 20 year old jacuzzi magnum plus housing) just to keep water circulating, my jacuzzi CFR 100 blew up (lid cracked) after about a week. At this point, since I need a filter (housing leaks a lot...I'm all caulked out!) & pump (housing also leaks), and I really need to replace my Kreepy (20 yrs old) & I want to go back to a salt system (SCG) anyway - I figured I would look at replacing everything, even the spa pump. I have been leaning/looking at Pentair equipment since their extended 3 yr warranty covers the motor & labor (yes, I verified 2x). Also, they seem to have the best reviews for automation with built in SCG (which will save me $$$ if I do both).

    I have met with & talked to a lot of pool companies & they all say something different & many have said they only like Hayward for certain things or Jandy automation. Of those that would quote Pentair, some said Superflo, some Whisperflo, & at least half said Intelliflo VS. The other half said the Intelliflo is not worth it because I'll never make the upfront cost back in a reasonable amount of time & replacement parts are very expensive. None, can explain their choice of pump based on flow/gpm/head requirements. Many have also said I have to replace all of my pvc & valves on my pad (see pix below). Can't I reuse valves? If it weren't for the new warranty rules I would do the work myself because it has been so frustrating dealing with the pool companies so far.

    When I called Pentair to ask about gpm/head/flow help & help choosing a pump, he said....that I couldn't possibly understand all of the technical details (like service factor, rpm, etc.) & that I shouldn't concern myself with them because a motor running at 3450rpm, whether it is 3/4hp, 1hp, or 1.5hp are all the same, no savings. They will all use the same energy. So if I would just get an intelliflo VS, even if I ran it at 2600 rpm, I would save money. He also said I would not notice a difference between a 1hp Superflo & Whisperflo, & they would cost the same to run as my pump now. He then said that the 3/4 full rated Whisperflo pump is exactly the same as the 1hp uprated & if I have a 1hp pool pump, it would get replaced with a 1hp pump. Is this all true? I have read Hydraulics 101 & more, some I get, some I don't.

    I will be adding solar back to the system too (blew off in storm). 1 story house, peak is about 15ft high. When I had it before it basically ran at least 6-8hrs each day. If I ran the pump for 8 hrs, solar ran too. It's rare that solar is not on here. With this in mind, and based on other posts I've read, I feel like the VS pump will have to run at a minimum of 2400+ rpm for the solar & at that rate, may not be worth the upfront cost? Our electric rate is 10 cents kwh. In using the Pentair calculator (at 8hrs/day), 2400rpm would save $241/yr, 2800rpm would save $84/yr (and I'm sure their calculations are on the ideal world side, my plumbing has a lot of 90s). I'm not sure what HP is equivalent to the respective rpms? I can get the pump locally for $999. I tried to do my own calculations for gpm/head loss, etc. I used the Hayward method & the Inyopools method. Hayward got me 32ft TDH, while the other got me 52ft TDH. And with both, how do I factor solar, kreepy, salt, & Raypak 11kw electric back-up heater (do I need to add for them)? My pool is around 11,400 gal. & my spa is around 450 gals. Yes, they are integrated, but I do have a separate spa pump & I think I should keep it that way (based on posts I have read). The spa pump does not have its own filter (the water gets filtered via the pool pump all day), it has 4 jets (I have no idea if the jets are 3/4 or ?). The pipes I see are 1" ID & 1 1/4" OD, but I think that's not the jet size I'm supposed to be finding? I read that keeping the separate spa pump set up I have is better than consolidating, although many pool guys said consolidate with a VS? We use the spa at least once a week.

    The pool skimmer plumbing is 1 1/2" although at the pad it is transitioned to 2" & then another 1 1/2" to the pump (guess that may change with new pump). The spa is 2" & has small 1 1/2" at pump inlet. My plumbing is a tight maze, but it works. There are a lot of 90s & ups/downs. The inlet/outlets to the heater are 1 1/2" too. Is it true that a 1 1/2" pipe can only take 60gpm?

    At first I was thinking Superflo to save money (saves at least $100 a pump), but I don't want them to be straining or noisy compared to the whisperflo. Reviews have been mixed, although many say the Whisperflo is quieter & made better? I understand that my Jacuzzi Magnum Plus pumps are considered high head pumps & so are the Whisperflos, does that mean my answer must be Whisperflo?

    Does anyone have an opinion on the Easy Touch 4 w/IC40 SCG? I have old FAFCO automation that still works, but it's been touchy the last few years (one too many power surges). Also, I can get it locally for $1300, which for automation plus the salt system in one seems like a good deal. Can anyone confirm that my Raypak 11kw heater can be hooked up to it? I think it can. Pentair said yes, but 2 local pool guys said no? For the salt system, does anyone know if it can just be shut off for pool resurfacing or does it have to be removed?

    At this point I am just scrambling to get the equipment/prices so I can have my system back up by July4th. I don't have high hopes. I think I may have to just get the new filter (although that may mean plumbing to the pool pump 2x - old pump & then new pump). I was thinking of the new Clean & Clear RP 150, which is why the plumbing might have to happen 2x. Any opinion on it vs the regular clean & clear? price wise, it keeps coming up cheaper or the same price as the regular 150.

    I think that covers it for now. Thank you all so much in advance for any advice/help you may provide. I hope I didn't leave anything out.016.jpg014.jpg
    Build: 1994. 11,400 gallons IG Diamond brite pool with integrated spa, Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1hp (pool), Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1.5hp (spa), Jacuzzi CFR 100, Raypak 11kw electric heater, Fafco AutoPool

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by pc975 View Post
    Many have also said I have to replace all of my pvc & valves on my pad (see pix below). Can't I reuse valves?
    Possibly. Once you get into plumbing, sometimes you have to replace a lot of it so it usually is not as easy as just swapping pumps.


    When I called Pentair to ask about gpm/head/flow help & help choosing a pump, he said....that I couldn't possibly understand all of the technical details (like service factor, rpm, etc.) & that I shouldn't concern myself with them because a motor running at 3450rpm, whether it is 3/4hp, 1hp, or 1.5hp are all the same, no savings. They will all use the same energy. So if I would just get an intelliflo VS, even if I ran it at 2600 rpm, I would save money. He also said I would not notice a difference between a 1hp Superflo & Whisperflo, & they would cost the same to run as my pump now. He then said that the 3/4 full rated Whisperflo pump is exactly the same as the 1hp uprated & if I have a 1hp pool pump, it would get replaced with a 1hp pump. Is this all true?
    No and I can't believe they told you that. . All pumps use different power and it can be a big difference. But it is true that a 3/4 HP full rated is the same as a 1 HP up rated pump.


    At first I was thinking Superflo to save money (saves at least $100 a pump), but I don't want them to be straining or noisy compared to the whisperflo. Reviews have been mixed, although many say the Whisperflo is quieter & made better? I understand that my Jacuzzi Magnum Plus pumps are considered high head pumps & so are the Whisperflos, does that mean my answer must be Whisperflo?
    Superflo is a good pump and just a quiet as a Whisperflo according to those who have one. A lot of disinformation circulates through the internet.


    But the most important thing you have told me is that you have a spa and that usually sets the size of the pump. For spas, you are probably better off sticking with a Whisperflo pump because it is a higher head pump than the Superflo and can handle the spa jets a little better. You are handicapped a little with the 2" pipe but a 1.5 HP would probably work ok for that.

    Normally I would steer you toward a two speed but with a spa, a VS would not be a bad choice either since you have to get a large pump for the spa. That way you have a few more than two speeds that you can work with. High for the spa, mid for a cleaner and low for circulation. Plus a VS takes the guess work out of sizing a pump. Do you know if your power company offers any rebates. That can help equalize the cost difference.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    mas985, thank you for the quick reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    Possibly. Once you get into plumbing, sometimes you have to replace a lot of it so it usually is not as easy as just swapping pumps.
    Although I plan to hire someone to do the work (only because of the warranty rules), I would like to understand my options & as much about the plumbing process as possible so that I don't get ripped off.
    I understand that the height of the pump inlet will be different. The Whisperflo & Intelliflo are at 8 1/8" & my current pumps are at 9 1/16". Not sure how to compensate for that without cutting back a lot of the line which then will affect some valves? How much do I have to cut back & do I then use a 45 or something to get the height up? or do I just cut it all the way back? If I cut it all the way back, how do I know if I can reuse the valves? Since the pool skimmer line is 1 1/2", is it o.k. to have it transition to 2" up to the pool pump the way it is now or should it be changed to all 1 1/2"? Do you know if the 2" valve in front of my spa pump has a purpose other than to turn off the water to the pump? Is it there because every pump should have a shut off?

    No and I can't believe they told you that. . All pumps use different power and it can be a big difference. But it is true that a 3/4 HP full rated is the same as a 1 HP up rated pump.
    So they would really use the same power too? Is this the same for the Energy Efficient Superflos & the up rated Energy efficient Whisperflos, they look the same too? If my current 1hp motor is 3450 rpm, 15/7.5 amps & has a 1.1 SF & the 3/4hp Whisperflo has higher amps & higher SF, does that mean it used more electric? Or is it the gpm of water moved?

    Superflo is a good pump and just as quiet as a Whisperflo according to those who have one. A lot of disinformation circulates through the internet.
    I try to take everything with a grain of salt on the internet. Especially since I read to much!

    But the most important thing you have told me is that you have a spa and that usually sets the size of the pump. For spas, you are probably better off sticking with a Whisperflo pump because it is a higher head pump than the Superflo and can handle the spa jets a little better. You are handicapped a little with the 2" pipe but a 1.5 HP would probably work ok for that.
    Would I still need a high head pump if my spa pump remains separate from the pool pump & doesn't go through the filter (only the little heater)? Distance to the spa is maybe 14'. Is it that spas always require a high head pump because we want to push as much water as possible through the small jets?

    Normally I would steer you toward a two speed but with a spa, a VS would not be a bad choice either since you have to get a large pump for the spa. That way you have a few more than two speeds that you can work with. High for the spa, mid for a cleaner and low for circulation. Plus a VS takes the guess work out of sizing a pump. Do you know if your power company offers any rebates. That can help equalize the cost difference.
    No such luck & we live in the largest/densest county in the state. Should I consolidate to a VS pump, even with solar? The solar runs all day (it's always sunny here) & so does the cleaner. Is it true that the solar will require the VS pump to run at least 2400+ rpms & for the spa it will be higher. If this is true, would there still be a savings in the long run over going with two regular pumps (whisperflo/superflo)? Is it really that if you use lower rpms, you use less energy?

    If it will save me money/energy (where I can get back the upfront cost), I thought about changing the pool pump to a VS & leaving the spa pump for now (it still works but it's on the way out, maybe I'll get a year). When it goes, I know I can just move a valve to have it run the spa, but since it will then go through the filter, won't it reduce the power of the jets? And will I need a bigger filter to handle the higher RPMs for the spa (which increases my upfront cost again)? I Was planning on a Clean & clear 150 or RP150 (any thoughts on those two?), will I need a 200 for the spa? Will it be possible to run the spa with the VS isolated like it is now (not going through the filter) even if it is the pool pump?

    thank you all again...
    Build: 1994. 11,400 gallons IG Diamond brite pool with integrated spa, Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1hp (pool), Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1.5hp (spa), Jacuzzi CFR 100, Raypak 11kw electric heater, Fafco AutoPool

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    I understand that the height of the pump inlet will be different. The Whisperflo & Intelliflo are at 8 1/8" & my current pumps are at 9 1/16". Not sure how to compensate for that without cutting back a lot of the line which then will affect some valves? How much do I have to cut back & do I then use a 45 or something to get the height up? or do I just cut it all the way back? If I cut it all the way back, how do I know if I can reuse the valves? Since the pool skimmer line is 1 1/2", is it o.k. to have it transition to 2" up to the pool pump the way it is now or should it be changed to all 1 1/2"? Do you know if the 2" valve in front of my spa pump has a purpose other than to turn off the water to the pump? Is it there because every pump should have a shut off?
    The valve could be to switch the filter and heater between the pool and spa. The second valve could be between skimmers or skimmer and MD. But the height of the pump may be why the installer wants to replace the valves. You could try and find a pump with the same height as the old pumps.


    So they would really use the same power too? Is this the same for the Energy Efficient Superflos & the up rated Energy efficient Whisperflos, they look the same too? If my current 1hp motor is 3450 rpm, 15/7.5 amps & has a 1.1 SF & the 3/4hp Whisperflo has higher amps & higher SF, does that mean it used more electric? Or is it the gpm of water moved?
    A 3/4 HP full rated pump and a 1 HP up rated pump of the SAME PUMP LINE will use the same power. However, this is not necessarily true between pump lines. The Superflo series is a lower head pump than Whisperflo and in most cases, the same rated pump will use less power than the Whisperflo but also generate less flow rate too.


    Would I still need a high head pump if my spa pump remains separate from the pool pump & doesn't go through the filter (only the little heater)? Distance to the spa is maybe 14'. Is it that spas always require a high head pump because we want to push as much water as possible through the small jets?
    The circulation pump could be SuperFlo and would be a good choice. There are several on the forum who have the 1 HP SuperFlo and are quite happy with the pump. I was referring to the spa jet pump because it was not clear if you had planned on replacing that too or not.



    No such luck & we live in the largest/densest county in the state. Should I consolidate to a VS pump, even with solar? The solar runs all day (it's always sunny here) & so does the cleaner. Is it true that the solar will require the VS pump to run at least 2400+ rpms & for the spa it will be higher. If this is true, would there still be a savings in the long run over going with two regular pumps (whisperflo/superflo)? Is it really that if you use lower rpms, you use less energy?
    Yes, the VS would require higher RPM when running solar but there are ways to reduce the RPM by strategic placement of the vacuum release valve (i.e. a few feet above the equipment pad). Power is related to the cube of RPM so yes, lower RPM has a dramatic affect on power usage. But at some point, it just doesn't matter much. For you, the reason to go with a VS is ability to optimize for solar because a two speed would likely have a lower lifetime cost than a VS. As for consolidation, I would keep the spa jet pump separate for performance reasons.



    If it will save me money/energy (where I can get back the upfront cost), I thought about changing the pool pump to a VS & leaving the spa pump for now (it still works but it's on the way out, maybe I'll get a year). When it goes, I know I can just move a valve to have it run the spa, but since it will then go through the filter, won't it reduce the power of the jets? And will I need a bigger filter to handle the higher RPMs for the spa (which increases my upfront cost again)? I Was planning on a Clean & clear 150 or RP150 (any thoughts on those two?), will I need a 200 for the spa? Will it be possible to run the spa with the VS isolated like it is now (not going through the filter) even if it is the pool pump?
    The issue of running the spa jets through the filter is high flow rates. The filter you have now is much too small for the pump you have now let alone a VS so if you decide on a single pump, then I would consider a larger filter too or at least a filter bypass. Even a 150 may be too small. If you want to size this properly, you have to take into consideration the flow rate that will be going through the filter. How many jets does your spa have?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    The valve could be to switch the filter and heater between the pool and spa. The second valve could be between skimmers or skimmer and MD. But the height of the pump may be why the installer wants to replace the valves. You could try and find a pump with the same height as the old pumps.
    I tried to find a closer height, but I haven't found anything yet, so I decided to go with Pentair for the warranty. Are valves allowed to be reused?


    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    A 3/4 HP full rated pump and a 1 HP up rated pump of the SAME PUMP LINE will use the same power. However, this is not necessarily true between pump lines. The Superflo series is a lower head pump than Whisperflo and in most cases, the same rated pump will use less power than the Whisperflo but also generate less flow rate too.
    Got it, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    The circulation pump could be SuperFlo and would be a good choice. There are several on the forum who have the 1 HP SuperFlo and are quite happy with the pump. I was referring to the spa jet pump because it was not clear if you had planned on replacing that too or not.
    If I replace it now with the rest of the equipment I get the benefit of the extended 3yr warranty, so probably will do.


    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    Yes, the VS would require higher RPM when running solar but there are ways to reduce the RPM by strategic placement of the vacuum release valve (i.e. a few feet above the equipment pad). Power is related to the cube of RPM so yes, lower RPM has a dramatic affect on power usage. But at some point, it just doesn't matter much. For you, the reason to go with a VS is ability to optimize for solar because a two speed would likely have a lower lifetime cost than a VS. As for consolidation, I would keep the spa jet pump separate for performance reasons.
    Is the vacuum release valve for the solar?


    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    The issue of running the spa jets through the filter is high flow rates. The filter you have now is much too small for the pump you have now let alone a VS so if you decide on a single pump, then I would consider a larger filter too or at least a filter bypass. Even a 150 may be too small. If you want to size this properly, you have to take into consideration the flow rate that will be going through the filter. How many jets does your spa have?
    The spa has 4 jets. Would a 200 work?
    Build: 1994. 11,400 gallons IG Diamond brite pool with integrated spa, Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1hp (pool), Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1.5hp (spa), Jacuzzi CFR 100, Raypak 11kw electric heater, Fafco AutoPool

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Vacuum release is for solar and allows the panels to self drain when the pump shuts off.

    As for the spa, have you decided on a separate pump or not? Also, what kind of jets are they and what flow rate do they require?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    Vacuum release is for solar and allows the panels to self drain when the pump shuts off.

    As for the spa, have you decided on a separate pump or not? Also, what kind of jets are they and what flow rate do they require?
    Not sure yet, but if we stay with 2 pumps & the pool pump ever goes down, I would like to be able to put the spa pump on it temporarily (like I just did), without blowing up the filter (like I just did!). I'm not sure what kind of jets they are. I only know they are 20yrs old & when I measured the opening/pipe that I see, it was 1" inside & 1 1/4" outside.
    Build: 1994. 11,400 gallons IG Diamond brite pool with integrated spa, Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1hp (pool), Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1.5hp (spa), Jacuzzi CFR 100, Raypak 11kw electric heater, Fafco AutoPool

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by pc975 View Post
    Oh my God... that is one of the busiest pump pads I've seen here.
    I'd bet you my bikini you'll never get TFP water from a pool store!

    24' Sharkline Venture De Filter

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey View Post
    Oh my God... that is one of the busiest pump pads I've seen here.
    If I knew 20yrs ago what I know now.....!!! Given the space constraints, I don't see a way to improve much when I replace the equipment either.
    Build: 1994. 11,400 gallons IG Diamond brite pool with integrated spa, Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1hp (pool), Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1.5hp (spa), Jacuzzi CFR 100, Raypak 11kw electric heater, Fafco AutoPool

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by pc975 View Post
    Not sure yet, but if we stay with 2 pumps & the pool pump ever goes down, I would like to be able to put the spa pump on it temporarily (like I just did), without blowing up the filter (like I just did!). I'm not sure what kind of jets they are. I only know they are 20yrs old & when I measured the opening/pipe that I see, it was 1" inside & 1 1/4" outside.
    mas985,
    I'm confused on how to choose the replacement spa pump. I know you mentioned that a 1.5hp will be fine. The distance from the pump to the spa drain is about 14ft. PVC is 2". The water does not go through a filter, but it does go through a small RayPak 11kw heater (min 15gpm required according to instruction book, with 1 1/2" inlet/outlet. Does this mean the spa only has 14ft/head? This seems really low? Is there a min ft/head that I should be using for a spa? With 4 spa jets, but not knowing the size of the jets, the min gpm for jets could be 60-80gpm (right?). Even at 30ft/head, the Whisperflo EE 3/4hp full rated hits 90gpm & the EE 1hp full rated/1.5hp EE up rated hit 110gpm. A full rated EE 1.5hp goes to about 130gpm. Can a 2" pipe handle 130gpm? If the maximum gpm for the jets is 80, will I need a pump that puts out 130gpm? I feel like I'm missing something here?

    Motor question: For my current Jacuzzi Magnum Plus spa pump, the label on the motor doesn't have a HP or SF. It shows amps 8/16, volts 230/115, part# 8-184948-21 and serial# BP8-284. How would I know if it's really a 1.5hp. I believe it's the original motor. The original pool plans call for a 1.5hp pump. Based on the spec sheet I have for the Jacuzzi Magnum Plus pumps, 8/16 amps would be a 1.5hp up rated or a 1hp full rated with a max of 94pgm. Since my pool pump is a 1hp & the spa pump blew the lid off, I was going with a 1.5hp for the spa pump.

    Thank you
    Build: 1994. 11,400 gallons IG Diamond brite pool with integrated spa, Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1hp (pool), Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1.5hp (spa), Jacuzzi CFR 100, Raypak 11kw electric heater, Fafco AutoPool

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Does this mean the spa only has 14ft/head?
    No. Head loss has many factors, least of which is pipe length. For a spa, the majority of head loss is in the spa jets. Without knowing the details of your plumbing and jets nozzle dimensions, it is impossible to calculate.

    But given the amp rating, your old pump is most like a 1 1/2 HP up rated pump which should be sufficient for 4 jets. So if you liked the jets with the old pump, that is what I would target. The Pentair WFE-4, WFE-26 would be good choices.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    No. Head loss has many factors, least of which is pipe length. For a spa, the majority of head loss is in the spa jets. Without knowing the details of your plumbing and jets nozzle dimensions, it is impossible to calculate.

    But given the amp rating, your old pump is most like a 1 1/2 HP up rated pump which should be sufficient for 4 jets. So if you liked the jets with the old pump, that is what I would target. The Pentair WFE-4, WFE-26 would be good choices.

    mas985, thank you. Is there a way for me to figure out the spa jet sizes? The construction plan says 1 1/2" jets, but I know I measured 1" inside & 1 1/4" outside? Is the jet far into the pipe because I don't feel or see anything else?
    Build: 1994. 11,400 gallons IG Diamond brite pool with integrated spa, Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1hp (pool), Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1.5hp (spa), Jacuzzi CFR 100, Raypak 11kw electric heater, Fafco AutoPool

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    That is the pipe size not jet. Venturi jets are usuall 3/8" or 7/16" and are located deep inside the spa wall. You can take them out with a 9/16" socket wrench and they look like this:



    Some assemblies look like this but again, the are in the spa wall:




    Here are some other pics

    https://www.google.com/search?newwin....0.611kj4_RAUc
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  14. Back To Top    #14

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by pc975 View Post
    mas985, thank you. Is there a way for me to figure out the spa jet sizes? The construction plan says 1 1/2" jets, but I know I measured 1" inside & 1 1/4" outside? Is the jet far into the pipe because I don't feel or see anything else?
    mas 985,
    Does it make a difference if I have a spa blower? Does that mean I don't have smaller Venturi jets? Also, I don't have any eyeballs, just an open pipe.
    Build: 1994. 11,400 gallons IG Diamond brite pool with integrated spa, Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1hp (pool), Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1.5hp (spa), Jacuzzi CFR 100, Raypak 11kw electric heater, Fafco AutoPool

  15. Back To Top    #15
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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    A blower does not affect the size of the jet nozzles. The only reason you should need a spa blower is because you have a long distance between the spa and the air vent. Some PBs put them because they are trying to compensate for a poor spa plumbing design. But at 14', you really shouldn't need it. You might find the jets work fine if you remove the blower.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  16. Back To Top    #16

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    mas985,

    I have a few more pump questions & a related filter & spa jet question.

    1) For the Whisperflo line, will I really see a savings taking a WFE-4 over a WF-26? I see that the amps are 7.4 vs 8.0 respectively, but the SF/SFHP are 1.65/1.65 & 1.10/1.65 respectively? I have the same question for the WFE-3 over the WF-24. I ask because the EE pumps are $30 more than the standard ones & wonder if I will make it back in energy savings.

    2) For the Jacuzzi 1.5hp spa pump replacement, is it o.k. that the Whisperflo line is about 12-20gpm higher/greater than the Jacuzzi is across the head curve? I think the 2" plumbing can handle it because the pump maxes out at about 115gpm, but will more flow increase my energy usage? Or will it be better for the jets?

    3) Is there a general/average amount of resistance/head used for each spa jet? I know the flow requirement per jet can be 15gpm, 20gpm, or even 25gpm, but does each one of those gpms correlate to a certain amount of resistance per jet with 2" pipe?

    4) You mentioned that a Superflo pump would be o.k. for my 1hp pool pump replacement. Am I understanding this correctly; to replace my 1hp Jacuzzi, the equivalent Superflo would have to go to curve H, which is the SF-N1-1-1/2AE which is a 1.5hp pump? Or do I go by the flow that I think I need as opposed to matching the existing pump? I think I have 50' of head (I added up the distance from the skimmer, main drain, & kreepy suction line to the pump & divided by 3. Does that work or do I have to add something for solar, salt?). I think the flow should be at least 40 or 50gpm because of solar (which would also allow for 2 turnovers a day)? At 50ft/head, the Jacuzzi was at about 64gpm. The Whisperflo will hit 70gpm, the Superflo 1hp would hit 55gpm & the Superflo 1.5hp would hit 70gpm. Am I looking at this all wrong? I ask this also because the Superflo is about $80-$100 less than the Whisperflo. The Superflo is 7.4 amps, which is higher than either Whisperflo choice for a 1hp replacement. If the Whisperflo line is in general a better line (better build, etc.), than I guess it's worth it?

    5) If the spa pump was ever down & I wanted to use the pool pump for the spa (I have a valve I can turn), I imagine the Whisperflo would be the better pump to have at that point? I did try the valve once with the Jacuzzi 1hp, just to see how it worked, it was o.k., but without the blower on, it was hard to tell the difference. Couldn't figure out how to get the blower to work from that pump instead of the spa pump.

    6) For the filter replacement, I was looking at the Clean & Clear RP150 (the quotes I have are less than the regular Clean & Clear). It says the flow is 150gpm. Is that not a true flow rate? You brought up in one of your previous replies that this might not be large enough for a VS, would it be large enough for the pumps I'm looking at now, especially the 1.5hp Whisperflo or Superflo? In case I ever have to move the spa pump temporarily to the pool pump spot, I want the filter to be able to handle it & not blow up.
    Build: 1994. 11,400 gallons IG Diamond brite pool with integrated spa, Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1hp (pool), Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1.5hp (spa), Jacuzzi CFR 100, Raypak 11kw electric heater, Fafco AutoPool

  17. Back To Top    #17
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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    1) The (E) versions are about 10% more efficient. The motor label amp rating is not the same as the operating point so ignore that.

    2) Do you have the head curve of the Jacuzzi and how are you comparing them? You cannot look at a constant head or constant GPM point when comparing head curves. You have to compare them on the same plumbing which is a parabolic line (plumbing curve) that crosses each pump head curve. So the pumps may not be as different as you think they are.

    3) A 3/8" jet will have about 15 PSI of pressure loss at 15 GPM which is 35' of head loss. The head loss is the same for 7/16" jets at 20 GPM. So both jets will "feel" about the same in terms of strength because it is the exit velocity which influences the perceived strength. But since each jet is in parallel, the head loss is independent of the number of jets. If each jet gets 15 GPM, then head loss is still 35' if there is 4 jets or 400 jets. However, the total flow rate impacts the rest of the plumbing so the head loss will differ in the pipe and fittings. With 4 15 GPM jets, that is 60 GPM. With 4x20 GPM jets, that is 80 GPM. But it is actually much more complicated than that because without a VS pump, you cannot set the exact flow rate for the jets nor does it really matter as long as you are close.

    4) You are over thinking things. None of that matters. For a circulation only pump, smaller is better - period. Also, forget about turnover. It doesn't matter (read pump run time article in my sig).

    5) The Whisperflo would work fine until you got the other pump fixed.

    6) That is the maximum flow rate but for that filter, you want to be below 60 GPM for normal operation. The SuperFlo might exceed that on 2" plumbing so a 200 sq-ft might be a better choice. Plus you don't want to have to clean a cartridge very often. I have a 420 sq-ft filter and clean it once every 12 months which is fine by me. Your pool is about 1/2 the size as mine so 200 sq-ft would be perfect.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  18. Back To Top    #18

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    1) The (E) versions are about 10% more efficient. The motor label amp rating is not the same as the operating point so ignore that.
    Got it, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    2) Do you have the head curve of the Jacuzzi and how are you comparing them? You cannot look at a constant head or constant GPM point when comparing head curves. You have to compare them on the same plumbing which is a parabolic line (plumbing curve) that crosses each pump head curve. So the pumps may not be as different as you think they are.
    Yes, I have the head curve for the Jacuzzi Magnum Plus pump line. I look at ft/head & go across for gpm for the Jacuzzi pump & then look at the whisperflo or superflo at the same ft/head to see what the gpm would be. So if I think my system has 50ft/head, I look at that on each chart & then go across to get the gpm of each pump at that ft/hd.

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    3) A 3/8" jet will have about 15 PSI of pressure loss at 15 GPM which is 35' of head loss. The head loss is the same for 7/16" jets at 20 GPM. So both jets will "feel" about the same in terms of strength because it is the exit velocity which influences the perceived strength. But since each jet is in parallel, the head loss is independent of the number of jets. If each jet gets 15 GPM, then head loss is still 35' if there is 4 jets or 400 jets. However, the total flow rate impacts the rest of the plumbing so the head loss will differ in the pipe and fittings. With 4 15 GPM jets, that is 60 GPM. With 4x20 GPM jets, that is 80 GPM. But it is actually much more complicated than that because without a VS pump, you cannot set the exact flow rate for the jets nor does it really matter as long as you are close.
    So I would look at a pump that provides up to 80gpm at 60ft/hd. The WFE-4 & WFE-26 are just shy of 80gpm. My Jacuzzi at 60ft/hd provided only 70gpm.

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    4) You are over thinking things. None of that matters. For a circulation only pump, smaller is better - period. Also, forget about turnover. It doesn't matter (read pump run time article in my sig).
    I'm a little confused because I thought with solar & a Kreepy, that there has to be a min gpm or hp pump? Should I really be looking at sizes that don't exceed 60gpm than? The Superflo 1hp at 50 ft-hd is only 55gpm? But then if I ever needed to use if for the spa, it would only provide 40gpm at 60 ft-hd (guess that goes with your answer to #5 below).

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    5) The Whisperflo would work fine until you got the other pump fixed.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    6) That is the maximum flow rate but for that filter, you want to be below 60 GPM for normal operation. The SuperFlo might exceed that on 2" plumbing so a 200 sq-ft might be a better choice. Plus you don't want to have to clean a cartridge very often. I have a 420 sq-ft filter and clean it once every 12 months which is fine by me. Your pool is about 1/2 the size as mine so 200 sq-ft would be perfect.
    So if 2" plumbing is on the pad going in/out of the filter, then the flow through the filter is higher than 60gpm, so I want a larger filter anyway? Will the 200 sq-ft would be o.k. for the Whisperflo WFE-4 (if I use it as the spa pump) as well. I was cleaning my cfr-100 every month & that was pushing it. So yes, once a year would be nice.
    Build: 1994. 11,400 gallons IG Diamond brite pool with integrated spa, Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1hp (pool), Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1.5hp (spa), Jacuzzi CFR 100, Raypak 11kw electric heater, Fafco AutoPool

  19. Back To Top    #19
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Yes, I have the head curve for the Jacuzzi Magnum Plus pump line. I look at ft/head & go across for gpm for the Jacuzzi pump & then look at the whisperflo or superflo at the same ft/head to see what the gpm would be. So if I think my system has 50ft/head, I look at that on each chart & then go across to get the gpm of each pump at that ft/hd.
    Head increases with flow rate so you can't look at constant head between the two pumps. The process is a bit more involved but I can give you an example. Plot this curve over all the pump head curves. Where it intersects the head curve is the operating point.

    Typical spa plumbing head curve (ft) = 0.0167 * GPM^2

    So for example, if your old pump produced 70 GPM @ 60' of head, the WFE-4 would produce about 72 GPM @ 63' of head on the same plumbing. So flow rate is not much different.


    I'm a little confused because I thought with solar & a Kreepy, that there has to be a min gpm or hp pump? Should I really be looking at sizes that don't exceed 60gpm than? The Superflo 1hp at 50 ft-hd is only 55gpm? But then if I ever needed to use if for the spa, it would only provide 40gpm at 60 ft-hd (guess that goes with your answer to #5 below).
    I wouldn't worry about IFs. A pump failure is a pretty rare event. You can do what want but my recommendation is to size each pump specifically for the task. That will minimize your energy usage.

    Also, a 1 HP SuperFlo is way more than what is actually necessary for solar and/or a cleaner. It is very easy to meet those requirements. Even some AG pumps can run solar and a cleaner.


    So if 2" plumbing is on the pad going in/out of the filter, then the flow through the filter is higher than 60gpm, so I want a larger filter anyway? Will the 200 sq-ft would be o.k. for the Whisperflo WFE-4 (if I use it as the spa pump) as well. I was cleaning my cfr-100 every month & that was pushing it. So yes, once a year would be nice.
    Again, I would not concern yourself with IFs. The 200 sq-ft filter would do just fine short term with the WFE-4. It has a max flow rate rating of 200 GPM. It just would not be optimal long term.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  20. Back To Top    #20

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    Re: Help! Need new equipment

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    Head increases with flow rate so you can't look at constant head between the two pumps. The process is a bit more involved but I can give you an example. Plot this curve over all the pump head curves. Where it intersects the head curve is the operating point.

    Typical spa plumbing head curve (ft) = 0.0167 * GPM^2. So for example, if your old pump produced 70 GPM @ 60' of head, the WFE-4 would produce about 72 GPM @ 63' of head on the same plumbing. So flow rate is not much different.
    So the EE 1hp Superflo wouldn't be far behind the 2 pumps above (sorry for the ignorance on the math formula here)?

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    I wouldn't worry about IFs. A pump failure is a pretty rare event. You can do what want but my recommendation is to size each pump specifically for the task. That will minimize your energy usage. Also, a 1 HP SuperFlo is way more than what is actually necessary for solar and/or a cleaner. It is very easy to meet those requirements. Even some AG pumps can run solar and a cleaner.
    Wow, so for the pool I can do a 1hp EE SuperFlo, SF-NI-1AE & it would be fine? That would save $120 over the Whisperflo. Does that mean that the Whisperflo WFE-3, is/was overkill & would use a bit more energy?


    Quote Originally Posted by mas985 View Post
    Again, I would not concern yourself with IFs. The 200 sq-ft filter would do just fine short term with the WFE-4. It has a max flow rate rating of 200 GPM. It just would not be optimal long term.
    O.K., so if I do the 1hp Superflo for the pool pump, would I still need the 200 filter? Or is it that I should get the 200 no matter what? Today one pool sales guys said the 200 was a waste vs the 150 because it's the same exact size housing with a filter that has more pleats, so it gets dirtier faster & costs more money to replace the cartridge. And, given the size pumps I'm looking at I won't benefit from it, only pay more for it. Another said I should just go with the 150 it's big enough to handle a 1.5hp pump & since I'm getting a 1 hp (Superflo) or 3/4hp (whisperflo) it was plenty.

    To throw a wrench into my thought process, one person today said, don't get solar, get a heat pump for the same money, but then you have to get an even larger filter. Is that true? i just want to know for future reference in case I consider it down the line.

    Thank you
    Build: 1994. 11,400 gallons IG Diamond brite pool with integrated spa, Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1hp (pool), Jacuzzi Magnum Plus 1.5hp (spa), Jacuzzi CFR 100, Raypak 11kw electric heater, Fafco AutoPool

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