Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: False chemistry ... by jmullen

  1. Back To Top    #1

    In the Industry

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Lowell/MA
    Posts
    2

    False chemistry ... by jmullen

    Split by moderator from HERE. Check your facts before posting in someone else's thread again. jblizzle

    Your PH is pretty good as long as it stays 7.2 - 7.6 , other wise chlorine becomes ineffective with higher P.H.'s Yes Shock your Pool `Then Let it run for 24 hours at least it will be a day or two before you get true readings after shocking a pool- so be patient and wait, then follow rules for balancing water. i.e.
    Alk 80- 120, vinyl can go up to 150. If you add CYA you must divide the CYA ppm by 3, subtract that from your alkalinity and thats your true Alkalinity ppm.
    Calcium 200 - 400 regardless of liner type. its all about your waters Saturation index in the end.
    CYA should be 30 - 60 ppm, some say 80 ppm is ok but more than that will once again stop chorine from doing it's job and you'll get algae etc..
    Chlorine can be from 1-3 ppm even 5, if P.H is at good levels you'll be comfortable. P.H is what bothers people in the pool, not chlorine.
    Any pool should have all its water filtrated at least once every 24 hours, maybe more with heavy bather loads.

    - - - Updated - - -

    CYA is a useless product I believe. Only China makes it and they're lobbying to stop its import anyway.

  2. Back To Top    #2
    Smykowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Gurnee, IL (North Suburban Chi-town)
    Posts
    3,065

    Re: Guess it's finally time to ask for help or at least a little reassurance...

    Quote Originally Posted by jmullen View Post
    CYA is a useless product I believe. Only China makes it and they're lobbying to stop its import anyway.
    Not gonna let that one slide by....before making statements like these, we'd appreciate it if you could back the argument up with some chemistry. The science, as practiced by pretty much everyone on this forum, would beg to differ.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

  3. Back To Top    #3
    y_not's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Redmond, OR
    Posts
    1,086

    Re: Guess it's finally time to ask for help or at least a little reassurance...

    Jmullen,

    Please explain how you feel cya is useless, when its sole purpose is to protect the Cl from annihilation in mere hours by the sun's UV rays?

    Without such protection, we would be in a world of hurt!

    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

  4. Back To Top    #4
    y_not's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Redmond, OR
    Posts
    1,086

    Re: Guess it's finally time to ask for help or at least a little reassurance...

    Quote Originally Posted by jmullen View Post
    If you add CYA you must divide the CYA ppm by 3, subtract that from your alkalinity and thats your true Alkalinity ppm.
    This is interesting, I have never heard of this formula for compensation of true chemistry readings. Could you please provide a reference as to your source for this?

    CYA is an acid, and will lower pH but not TA. Unlike MA/dry acid.



    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

  5. Back To Top    #5
    bridgman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Bowmanville, ON Canada
    Posts
    461

    Re: Guess it's finally time to ask for help or at least a little reassurance...

    Quote Originally Posted by jmullen View Post
    CYA is a useless product I believe. Only China makes it and they're lobbying to stop its import anyway.
    AFAIK what "they" are trying to stop is the inclusion of melamine and cyanuric acid (among other things) to raise protein levels in imported pet food (or anything else using protein concentrates).

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2984098/

    If you are talking about CYA in pet food, we probably agree. If you are talking about CYA in a swimming pool, not so much. What would you suggest as an alternative to control chlorine destruction by sunlight in a swimming pool ?
    Cedar hot tub, 680 US gallons - Snorkel wood-burning heater, canoe paddle, "offline" Intex 1000 GPH pump/filter with skimmer

  6. Back To Top    #6
    BoDarville's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    DFW, Texas
    Posts
    3,840

    Re: False chemistry ... by jmullen

    Quote Originally Posted by jmullen
    CYA is a useless product I believe. Only China makes it and they're lobbying to stop its import anyway.
    Add me to the list of those calling you out to explain this misinformation as it applies to swimming pools.
    Gold Supporter, TFP Lifetime Supporter, 26,680 gal Plaster IGP 3.5 - 10' depth / Attached Waterfall Spa, Manually Chlorinated, Triton Sand Filter, 1.5 HP * 1.1 SF = 1.65 SFHP 1-speed Pentair WhisperFlo WF-26 Pump, 400K BTU NG Teledyne Laars Series One Heater, Polaris 360, Test Kit Comparison, Chlorine/CYA Chart, SLAMing Your Pool, OCLT
    A good test kit is an investment, not an expense.

  7. Back To Top    #7
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,879

    Re: Guess it's finally time to ask for help or at least a little reassurance...

    Quote Originally Posted by y_not View Post
    This is interesting, I have never heard of this formula for compensation of true chemistry readings. Could you please provide a reference as to your source for this?
    This is how you calculate ATA, Adjusted Total Alkalinity. ATA is one of the inputs to the LSI calculation. It has no other purpose. It is only used for LSI. We don't even use LSI anymore, we have switched to CSI, so it has no purpose at all. Everything on this site always uses TA directly from the test kit, which is the number that actually matters (unless you still need LSI).
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  8. Back To Top    #8

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    San Rafael, CA USA
    Posts
    12,082

    Re: False chemistry ... by jmullen

    You first posted incorrect information in this post which I and others responded to and now you are posting the following which I will correct point by point even though much of this was covered in your other post (do you read our responses to your posts?). I suggest you first read (and reread) the Pool School and if you still have questions then ask them here in the Agree to Disagree section first until you understand the truth about pool water chemistry. Spreading incorrect or misinformation on this forum will not be tolerated and that includes some of what is commonly touted by the pool and spa industry. Trust me, you will get banned if you continue in this manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmullen View Post
    chlorine becomes ineffective with higher P.H.'s
    This is primarily only true when there is no Cyanuric Acid (CYA) in the water. You can compare the industry traditional graphs on chlorine effectiveness with no CYA vs. when CYA is present in this post I linked to earlier in response to your other post, but that apparently you did not look at. While the active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level drops by around 50% from a pH of 7.5 to 8.0 when there is no CYA in the water, with CYA present this level drops by only 15%. This is because CYA is a hypochlorous acid buffer.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmullen View Post
    Alk 80- 120, vinyl can go up to 150.
    I will repeat what I wrote in your other post that you obviously did not read. The TA level should be based on the type of disinfectant being used. For hypochlorite sources of chlorine the TA should not be too high and it has nothing to do with gunite vs. vinyl. A higher TA has more carbon dioxide outgassing that causes the pH to rise. See this chart for how over-carbonated a pool is at various pH and TA levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmullen View Post
    If you add CYA you must divide the CYA ppm by 3, subtract that from your alkalinity and thats your true Alkalinity ppm.
    That rule is approximate and works near a pH of 7.5, BUT this adjustment is used ONLY for calculating the Calcite (some call it Langelier) Saturation Index. The adjustment gives you the Carbonate Alkalinity, but again that's only used for calculating the saturation index. This is done automatically by PoolMath so there is no need for a pool owner to do this adjustment explicitly.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmullen View Post
    Calcium 200 - 400 regardless of liner type. its all about your waters Saturation index in the end.
    This is simply not true because vinyl does not need calcium to protect it. The "saturation" is of calcium carbonate to protect surfaces that contain calcium carbonate such as plaster and grout in tile. Calcium can also help prevent cobalt staining in fiberglass though not as much is needed in that case. For vinyl, there are pools reporting on this forum with zero and near-zero calcium that have no problems (over 10-15 years, by the way). Only poorly made vinyl liners with a lot of calcium carbonate filler would need more saturation and even then they are mostly susceptible to low pH (see this post for more details).

    Quote Originally Posted by jmullen View Post
    CYA should be 30 - 60 ppm, some say 80 ppm is ok but more than that will once again stop chorine from doing it's job and you'll get algae etc..
    This is only partially true in the sense that you keep your FC constant. However, it is NOT true if you proportionally raise the FC level as the CYA level climbs so that you keep the FC/CYA ratio constant. Again, this is something explained in my response to your other post. The active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level is proportional to the FC/CYA ratio (derivation of this fact is in this post). So specifying an FC or CYA level by itself is meaningless. One should set their CYA level appropriate to their conditions -- if not a lot of sun then 30 ppm is OK (even 20 ppm for indoor pools) but if there is a lot of sun then 60 ppm is better and up to 80 ppm at the extreme and for saltwater chlorine generator (SWG) pools. However, regardless of the CYA level, the minimum FC should be maintained according to the Chlorine / CYA Chart in the Pool School. These minimum FC levels for the CYA level are to prevent green and black algae growth regardless of algae nutrient (phosphate and nitrate) level.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmullen View Post
    Chlorine can be from 1-3 ppm even 5, if P.H is at good levels you'll be comfortable. P.H is what bothers people in the pool, not chlorine.
    Wrong, wrong, wrong. See my response above. The FC level should be set based on the CYA level. And as for what bothers people in pools, yes pH can have some effect (especially low pH), but chlorine can be a problem if the active chlorine level is too high so that it forms more chloramines since they can be both volatile and irritating. This is mostly a problem for higher bather-load indoor pools since they usually do not use CYA and there is poor air circulation and no sunlight exposure.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmullen View Post
    Any pool should have all its water filtrated at least once every 24 hours, maybe more with heavy bather loads.
    No, this isn't true unless there is a lot of debris getting into the pool. For most residential pools that are low bather load there does not need to be a lot of pump runtime. For many such pools, half a turnover per day is enough while for others one is enough, but generally more than one per day isn't needed and usually less is OK. The main reason one is likely to run for one turnover or more per day is to have enough pump runtime to run solar heating or to produce enough chlorine from an SWG.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmullen View Post
    CYA is a useless product I believe. Only China makes it and they're lobbying to stop its import anyway.
    Are you joking? So you are saying that you can only add cyanuric acid via stabilized chlorine (i.e. Trichlor and Dichlor)? Where do you think those products come from? It is often the case that some stabilized chlorine comes from the same manufacturers as CYA and even for U.S. manufactuers of stabilized chlorine (e.g. OxyChem, BioLab) they can either manufacture it from urea or buy their CYA from China or India (see this report regarding the stabilized chlorine aka chlorinated isocyanurate industry). With regard to stabilized chlorine, it was imported by Arch Chemicals (HTH, GLB, etc.), Alden Leeds (private labels), and Wego Chemical and Mineral so I expect they also imported CYA as well.

    It is true (as some have experienced) that SOME brands of CYA had problems and were from China (but other brands from China had no problems). However, we haven't had such "bad CYA" reports for a few years as far as I can tell and there were not many of them anyway. There is a 3.5% tariff for CYA imported into the United States as described here and here, but it is not specific to China. It is true though that the vast majority of CYA is manufactured in China, with India being second. There is nothing stopping a U.S., European or other country from making it, but it is made least expensively in China and India.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

  9. Back To Top    #9
    Smykowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Gurnee, IL (North Suburban Chi-town)
    Posts
    3,065

    Re: False chemistry ... by jmullen

    Locked.

    I think the point has been made.

    :insert dead horse emoticon here:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •