New and need guidamce

[Sharlotte]

Edited for readability.Hi, I am new to this site. We had fiberglass pool installed in 2009 it is approx 20K and we have Sta-Rite Equipment including a Max E Term heater I keep set at 86, Intelliclor IC20 I use in the summer, not turned on yet, a 1.5HP pump and a cartridge filter with new cartridges last week.

I had so much trouble the first 3 years having to replace the heater twice and the pump and I fired the pool guy thinking it must have been his fault then my troubles got much better when they finally came out and replaced the SWG which was the IC40 with the IC20.

I swim every day and keep a dome over the pool in the winter, shutting off the SWG and switching to chlorine tablets in a floater thing until summer (that seemed to keep the PH from bouncing back up so fast). I thought I was doing ok just watcing chlorine PH and TA until this past year when I started getting scale build up. I tried a scale remover which I put in 2 months in a row but it seemed not to do much then when I took dome off for summer I put in a packet of shock from Leslies which led to a ton of white powder on the bottom of the pool which I had seen before but did not know what it was. The scale on sides of pool seemed to be much better after shock so I did it again, same thing happened.

I went to search for answers which led me to this site. So I thought I must have the test kit and auto stir machine. I ordered them. They arrived and I had a great time yesterday playing chemist and checking my water but when I went to decide what my pool needs I became so confused I decided I just need to join and ask. This is what I came up with CH 300, TA 100, CC 1.5, FC .5, PH 8.5, salt 700. and the CYA test was so clear I always saw the black dot. After reading a lot of posts I was more confused, do I need borax do I need CYA do I really need 400 lbs of salt? So my husband takes a sample to Leslies today (after I had added muriatic acid this morning) and this is what they came up with FC 1.5, TAC 1.5, PH 7.4, TA 80, CYA 0, CH 210, salt 1700. They recomended 4 bags of salt (did not write lbs on the paper just bags) and 121lbs of conditioner.

My questions include not only what to put in but should I use borax? Is the CH what is causing the scale? How do I get CH down? I have to add water quite often due to evaporation in the summer. Should I test my tap water for CH? Why would I get 700 salt using the strips I bought from this site and they get 1700? (my strip read 2.8) Should I repeat that test? Would adding the acid this morning have changed that reading? Sorry I sound confused, I am though. Thanks for any help.

 

[duraleigh]

Welcome to the forum.

Have you read "The ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry" up in Pool School? Your post would indicate you have not. Please review that article and then ask your most pertinent question that you need solved. We cannot fix 24 problems in one post but we can fix them in 24 posts.

The test results you posted from yesterday are from a TF-100, is that correct? Leslie's results don't help us do not repost them.

 

[Sharlotte]

yes it was a tf 100. I read the ABCs at first, but then read a lot of other stuff and while at first i was getting it by the time I wrote I was very confused. I will start over in the morning and see if I can narrow it down with a fresh brain. Thanks

 

[Divin Dave]

Hi Sharlotte!
Welcome to TFP!

Welcome to the Junior Mad Scientist Club!

I think its absolutely awesome that you got a test kit, tested the water and posted your results on your first post! A high five to you for that!

We can certainly help you with your pool. You have a lot going on but not as much as you think you do. Some of the things you think are causing problems are not and there are some issues with your chemistry that need to get under control. No one expects you to be a pool chemistry expert overnight, so its ok to be confused.

The important thing in overcoming this is first to relax and try not to panic. Ok? :calm:

Lets keep it simple, a couple things at a time and everyting will be just fine. Please dont be discouraged. Also please dont add any more powders or liquids from the Pool Store. Ok? It may just make things worse and we don't want that.

I have an IC 40 which is the same as your IC 20, they work exactly the same. We will work on getting the salt fixed up for you too.

What we want your chemistry level to be for the short term, is follows (we will work on long term as we go along). Until we get your salt figured out, we are only going to work on the following things.
PH
FC
CYA

You Ph should be in the mid to lower 7's.. lets pick a number and shoot for 7.4.
WIth a 20K gal pool, and your current pH at 8.5, and TA of 80, you need to add about a quart + 1 cup of Muriatic Acid.
Pour the acid slowlyyyyy in front of a return with the pump running. Wait 30 mins then test again.

Wait about 1/2 hour, then add some chlorine, a.k.a. bleach.

For your Chlorine, since your Salt is low and you cant use your SWG, for now, I want you to add about 3 quarts of 8.25% bleach to the water. This will raise your FC to about 5 and will keep algae at bay while we work on you. Pour it slowly in front of a return with the pump running.

The bleach should be regualr bleach without any fancy scents or anything else in it. 8.25 is considered concentrated. Look on the back of the bleach jug where the ingredients are and it will tell you the concentraction for SODIUM HYPOCHLORITE. Sodium Hypochlorite is chlorine.
OK? check!

Next, I want you to get some CYA tomorrow (Monday). Granuals are fine. You are going to need about 12 lbs to start with. That will get up to 50 ppm which is where I want you to be for now.
Use an old sock, preferably a big one, and fill it with CYA and put it in the skimmer. Give it a squeeze every now and then to help it dissolve...keep your pump running. (you will prolly have to do this a few times until all 12 lbs of it are dissolved) Ok?. Just make sure teh sock is not restricting the water flow through the skimmer. As a FYI, CYA granules are slow to dissolve, so expet it to take a good while to get all 12 lbs dissolved.

Thats enough for now, we will tackle salt and ch and what not in the next couple days, but for now lets get you going with the above which is what you need to keep your pool from growing algae. (Please tell me your pool is not green already?)

You will need to test for FC and PH every day. You might need to adjust the PH, might not. Depends on the level.
For sure, you will need to add some bleach every day as you know, the FC burns off by the suns UV rays.

After you add some CYA, dont test for that for a few days because it takes a few days for it to show up on the test.

I hope this helps get you started. A lot of folks will be chiming in I'm sure, so try not to get confused... its really not very hard.

 

[Sharlotte]

Thank you for all the great information Dave! I so wish I had seen your instructions sooner. After the first response I felt pretty stupid so I re read the abcs and then ventured out to try to correct my issues. I hope I havent made things worse. No my pool is not green. Here is what I have done so far over the past couple of days. I had already added muriatic acid before my first post. Then I added Trichlor, a package that came from Home Depot and said it was to shock a 20k pool. Then I added 8 40 lb bags of water softner salt and stirred it around. Todays tests revealed FC 3, PH 7.5 and salt 1280. After that I sent husband back to Home depot for 5 more bags of salt and stabilizer. I put those 5 bags in. Then I came back to the site to read again how to do the CYA and saw your post. So I am hoping by doing things out of order I haven't messed up too badly. The CYA he bought is granular is that right? How much do I put in a sock? do I tie the sock or rubber band it? You said squeeze the sock, is it harmful to touch? Should I wear gloves? What if it does block water flow? Is that what I should do next or add more muriatic acid and bleach first? Thank you so much for your kind helpful response.

 

[Divin Dave]

Hi Sharlotte,

I've been looking for you. I'm glad you're back!
Im really releived that your water isnt green too.

You havent screwed anything up either. So breath easy!

The CYA will not hurt you. Its not harmful at all. Just dont eat any of it or put it in your coffee by mistake! It tastes awful! *ask me how I know*

As for the sock. Yeah, just pour some into an old sock and tie a string around the top and drop it in the skimmer.. If it blocks the waterflow, take it out, and get a longer piece of string and
rig up the sock so that it hangs off of the end of your broom pole and hang it in front of a return. Or you can hang it off of a fishing pole too! Just figure out some way to suspend the sock full of CYA in front of a return. What you dont want, is for the sock or the CYA granuals to be directly on your liner. Overexposure can make it fade if directly contact for too long.
This is why we recommend to put teh CYA in a sock and not pour it directly in the pool. NOTE: Since you added some trichlor, lets only shoot for adding 10 lbs of CYA.

Your PH looks good at 7.5. Just test regularly and keep it there. Adding the CYA will probably make it fall a bit. If the PH does get down to below 7.2, then point one of your return eyeballs up so that the water breaks the surface. Or if you have a fountain of some sort, turn it on. Anything that makes bubbles will raise the ph.

Test for FC every day and keep it at about 4, Please dont add any more trichlor because it also adds other stuff which have to be taken into account and it adds CYA at the same time.
Until we get your SWG going, bleach is the best option for adding chlorine and keeping your FC up.

Do you know how to use the Pool Math calculator? It is invaluable tool. Here is a quick tutorial.
Enter your pool volume at the top.
At the bottom, put in your pool surface type...select vinyl
For source of chlorine, put bleach... (until the swg is up and going).

In the left column, but your test results
In the column to the right, put your goal .. .then click the calculate button. The calculator will tell you how much and what to add. This thing is soooo cool and just makes life easy!
http://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html

Im sure you have prolly seen the recommended levels page too, but Im posting a link to it anyways because I tend to be long winded.
http://www.troublefreepool.com/content/134-recommended-levels

Come back later today and post up some more test results . (that test kit is fun isnt it?) and well will keep going until your pool is perfect!

PS. the calculator will help with determining how much more salt to add too. Keep adding it until your SWG salt light turns green and stop. Dont worry about the PPM.s of salt. If the swg is happy and the light is green, then that is enough salt.

I will be back this afternoon to see how things are coming along.

have a great day!

 

[Sharlotte]

Thanks Dave and I'd like to know how you know it tastes bad in coffee! I have been using the Pool math Calculator, it is very cool.

I should point out my pool is fiberglass not vinyl, don't know if that will make a difference in what you recommend or not.

I put some CYA in a sock and it's cooking now in the skimmer. But it only took part of a 3 pound container. Can I hang socks in front of all my returns to speed the process?

FC now is 3 PH 7.2 (I put a little more acid in a couple of hours before test) salt 1820 but still not all dissolved, I stirred it some more. I am sure there is a reason but why not just take a big bucket of pool water and mix the cya in with an electric paint stirrer then toss it all back in?

Is it time to turn the SWG back on? I just realized I have put a ton more salt in than I intended to. I wanted 400 lbs and in the confusion didn't realize my husband had bought 5 more bags and the yard man dumped them all in before I stopped to think about it. Hate to put more chemical in if I am going to have to dilute.

 

[jmbradwell]

One extra bag of salt wouldn't concern me especially with the size of your pool. I overshot by 600 ppm when I salted my pool. SWG is happy (that's all that really counts). I would wait a couple days before turning the SWG back on just to make sure all of the salt is dissolved.

 

[Divin Dave]

You're welcome Sharlotte,

Looks like you are getting a better hang of it. You are doing awesom!

sorry about forgetting your pool is fiberglass. Guess I have too many pools on my mind these days. My memory isnt what it used to be! (thats prolly a good thing!).
If you get a few minutes, could you help me remember by making a signature, and it would help anyone else who might come along too.

Jut below the Pool school button is SETTINGS. Click that. On the left side of the page is an Edit Signature link. Click that. Fill out your sig with as much pool and equipment info you would care to share. Here is a list of recommendations. This is entirely optional, you dont have to do it if you dont want to.

The size of your pool in gallons
If your pool is an AG (above ground) or IG (in ground)
If it's IG, tell us if it's vinyl, plaster/pebble, or fiberglass
The type of filter you have (sand, DE, cartridge) and, if you know, the brand and model of the filter.
If you know, please tell us the brand and model of the pump, and mention if is it a two speed or variable speed pump.
Date of pool build/install, particularly important if less then a year old.
Other significant accessories or options, such as a spa , SWG, or cleaner

You can hang as many socks full of CYA that you want too. Just dont put too much in there. Its not good if you do and will require dilution of the pool.
I mentione putting in 10 lbs. How about lets start with 8 instead and we can step up as required. Test the CYA on saturday afternoon or sunday and let me know what it is and we will go from there. CYA takes a few days to show up in the test.

Now about that mixing CYA in a bucket. It doesnt take much CYA to saturate that small amount of water. What will happen is the water will quickly turn white, just like milk and the rest will be a gooey mess that sinks to the bottom of the bucket. You might give it a try with just a little bit, maybe a pound and you will see what I mean.

Now lets figure out what up with that Salt.
You say you have 1820 in your 20,000 gallon pool. Ok. Hopefully, the test strips are somewhere close to accurate within 500 ppm.
Typically about 3000-4000 is recommended by teh SWG people. So 3500 is a decent target to use for now.

According to pool math, if you have 1820, you need to add 281 more pounds to get to 3500
The yard man threw in 5 bags x 40 lbs each is 200 lbs, According to pool math, 197 lbs will get you to 3000 ppm. (281 to 3500) so I think you are fine on the salt.

The SWG people, and your manual will confirm that you should circulate the water for 24 hrs before turning on the SWG. SO you should do that.
... After the water circulates for enough time, then turn it on. If the Salt light stays green, then you are good to go.
If low salt red light is on, then add 1 more bag and wait several hours and see if the red light goes to green.

Thanks Dave and I'd like to know how you know it tastes bad in coffee! I have been using the Pool math Calculator, it is very cool.

I should point out my pool is fiberglass not vinyl, don't know if that will make a difference in what you recommend or not.

I put some CYA in a sock and it's cooking now in the skimmer. But it only took part of a 3 pound container. Can I hang socks in front of all my returns to speed the process?

FC now is 3 PH 7.2 (I put a little more acid in a couple of hours before test) salt 1820 but still not all dissolved, I stirred it some more. I am sure there is a reason but why not just take a big bucket of pool water and mix the cya in with an electric paint stirrer then toss it all back in?

Is it time to turn the SWG back on? I just realized I have put a ton more salt in than I intended to. I wanted 400 lbs and in the confusion didn't realize my husband had bought 5 more bags and the yard man dumped them all in before I stopped to think about it. Hate to put more chemical in if I am going to have to dilute.

 

[Sharlotte]

Thanks again Dave! I made the signature with no problems we will see how it works when I finish. I started to add that I run pump 24 hours a day and Heater I keep at 86 but then thought perhaps I was going to find out from you that once I get it all balanced I may need to put a timer on it and not run it so much. My thoughts have always been I want to swim when I want to and I hate cold water. I try to swim everyday for my arthritis and I too suffer with memory issues lol that's why I think I get so confused about this stuff because I remember just enough to be dangerous lol.

I have been pretty content all these years just testing Chlorine, PH and TA with my little basic test kit although I really couldn't understand why I had to put acid in constantly to keep ph down. No one ever said to add CYA in fact many people said it was just the nature of the SWG to run high PH. In the winter when the dome goes up I just turn off the SWG and switch to chlorine tabs in a floater and dry acid instead of muriatic. Maybe when the time comes you will be able to help me just keep using the SWG. I think one reason for the switch was the the chlorine would get too high even on 20% without the sunshine. (not sure memory you know)

As far as turning on SWG I believe this is the first year the salt got so low during the winter. I usually just turn it on when the dome comes off and I think only once did I need to add salt. If my memory serves me I believe my first test for salt showed 700 ppm, I believe I calculated I would need 380 lbs to bring it to 3000 so thought 10 40 lb bags would do it. Sent hubby to store and he came home with 8 bags, I put them in and test next day came to 1280 ppm sent hubby back to get the other 2 bags but he came home with 5 and the yard guy put them in. That was yesterday early evening I believe, this morning test strip showed 1820. Since it has been 24 hours I just turned it on and as I feared it is flashing green high salt. The water level is high now, I can easily let some out and see what happens or wait till morning and see if it is still high.

I know it seems I am not getting back to you as I should and normally I would be quicker but I have a house full of company right now including 3 teenage grandaughters that are keeping me busy so the pool is taking a slight back seat right now. Thanks again for all your help, you have no idea how appreciative I am!

 

[Divin Dave]

HI Sharlotte,
no prob on getting back and posting. Life. I have one too, though sometimes I wonder!

wait till morning to see if salt is still high. If it is, then you will have to let some out.

On your calculation for salt, the way things are working out makes me think your salt test stips might not be any good. They can go bad after a while. If they have been sitting on the shelf in the store, they can go bad from just sitting for a long time. The bad thing is there is no good way to tell. I hate to do this. You dont even know bad I hate to say it... but, ... it might be worth while to take some water to the pool store to test for salt. But Dont Buy Anything from them and dont pay any attention to the rest of their test report!! If your test strips are that far off, then your starting point of 700 was wrong too. :-( Way too low.

somehow we need to get a better grip on the real salt level.

Your sig didnt show up in your last post. :-(

 

[Sharlotte]

LOL I understand about how you hate to say go to the pool store. I have never really trusted them but what are you going to do? A second opinion can be a good thing. I did order these strips at the same time I ordered the TF-100 kit. And as I said in my very first post the strip gave me 700 and then my husband took a sample to the pool store and they got 1700. I wondered if they just looked at the chart wrong and added a 1 to the 700 but perhaps you are right and the strips are bad, however as I have added salt and tested it has risen on the strips. Signature here this time?

 

[jcowart]

Hey Sharlotte, welcome to TFP. Looks like Dave has you on the right track. I will tell you that you really did find the right place to take control of your pool. I know you said that you looked over pool school. It is a lot of information but just take it in baby steps. It really does come easy. Pool stores are in the business to sell you chemicals, that's how they stay in business. What we will teach you is knowledge and around here it's free. You will learn YOUR pools personality. Every pool is just a little bit different in it's own way. Good luck on your trouble free pool and ask questions along the way.

 

[Divin Dave]

the sig worked!

Lets check your salt again in the morning and see if the light still falshes. Hopefuuly it will be ok. Might do another test strip too. I really dont know how long the salt has to be in there for it to show up on the strips. The tftestkits products are usually pretty accurace. Dave (the owner) really trys hard to make sure all of his stuff is as fresh as it can be.

 

[duraleigh]

Without small bites, Pool School is too big to swallow. Start by reading "The ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry". That's the jumping off point but read it a time or two and especially get very familiar with the suggested ranges of each of the parameters you test for. Then come back to your test results and see how they compare to the guidelines in the article.

While the salt strips should reassure you, the critical thing is to make your SWG happy. Once it decides you have enough salt, it should be happy and produce chlorine. Check behind it with the strips but don't expect them to be as close to one another as you might think.

 

[Sharlotte]

Thank you! Divin Dave the SWG is still flashing high salt and the test strip still reads 1820 so bad strips are probably the issue? Chlorine is 2 ph 7.4. Haven't put anymore socks in yet. Going out to vac some debris from bottom out to the discharge and that will lower water level to the lowest point for normal skimmer function and then I will come back and see what you recommend. One thought I had perhaps there is a problem with the SWG? but I did add total of 520 lbs so the test strip should be reading higher....

Thanks jcowart for the encouraging words!

I'm back. Vac'd out about 4-5 inches of water and have hose running more in right now. BTW the sock was empty but think I should wait to add more due to may need to let more water out?

 

[Divin Dave]

Yeah Sharlotte, I would say the strips are a bit off.

Hold off on adding more stabilizer till we get a green light on the SWG.
Dont know what else to do except replace more water until the salt level light goes steady green.

Thank you! Divin Dave the SWG is still flashing high salt and the test strip still reads 1820 so bad strips are probably the issue? Chlorine is 2 ph 7.4. Haven't put anymore socks in yet. Going out to vac some debris from bottom out to the discharge and that will lower water level to the lowest point for normal skimmer function and then I will come back and see what you recommend. One thought I had perhaps there is a problem with the SWG? but I did add total of 520 lbs so the test strip should be reading higher....

Thanks jcowart for the encouraging words!

I'm back. Vac'd out about 4-5 inches of water and have hose running more in right now. BTW the sock was empty but think I should wait to add more due to may need to let more water out?

 

[jmbradwell]

Keep FC up while you are waiting to get the SWG working.

 

[Sharlotte]

Well I turned water on and went to teach grandaughters how to sew and forgot about it. Pool has been overflowing all day I guess. Shut SWG off, pumped out about 4 more inches then turned SWG back on, still flashing green. I have a bucket of chlorine tabs and also about 6 or 7 pkg of leslies shock but an out of liquid bleach. should I pump out more water, add the tabs or go buy bleach? sorry i am such a pain.

 

[Divin Dave]

you can use the tabs for now.

Hate to hear about the troubles.