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Thread: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

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    New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    So, this is the start to my summer 2014 backyard redo project...

    Background: We bought the house back in 2012 with the in-ground pool having been filled in literally days before we saw the house for the first time. They pulled the pool, disconnected the pool lighting, but left the convenience outlet and the electrical service as well as the cut-off boxes on the back of the house along with the equipment pad (sans any equipment). In the utility area they left all the circuits connected, but with the breakers turned off. The backyard lights worked, but that is all we knew once we moved in.

    Well, I ended up going through the electrical last year and found they originally had all in the 240v panel, an electric pool heater on a 50amp dual-breaker with 8awg wiring, a pool pump on an Intermatic timer on a 20amp dual-breaker with 12awg wiring and a pool vac on another Intermatic timer with a 15amp dual-breaker and 14awg wiring. All of these go out back with separate quick disconnects. In the 120v panel they had the pool lighting, convenience outlet and backyard light posts all on a 15amp breaker with the feed being 12awg wiring. I ended up adding a GFCI to the lighting/convenience feed and replaced the convenience outlet along with adding a rain-tight cover.

    After two winters of the area that was filled in settling, and after getting the input from a number of qualified people in regards to how the in-ground pool was filled in, we finally decided to redo the entire backyard area. It was such a wreck because of the damage done filling in the pool, it was best to start with almost a clean slate. We are only keeping the landscaping at the back corner of the yard where the pool was (there is a line of burning bushes that work as a nice privacy break), as well as the apple tree and the stuff that is right against the house. The rest is being totally redone leaving only the original light posts where they are in the yard.

    So, after going through no less than 13 designs, and originally planning on a seasonal pool (so there would be no permit issues) that was to be replaced with wooden deck sections in the colder months, we decided it was best to go with a permanently installed above ground pool. Not only from a "hassle" standpoint, but also because it would allow use to "cap" the area that the original pool was located in.

    The plan is to use 3/4" aggregates that allow drainage below the pool, building up maybe 6-7" of lift using a vibratory plate compactor every couple of inches to compact the surface. This is after we pull off all the top-soil added at the pool location as well as 4 inches of sod/topsoil in the areas where the original pool/decking was not. We do plan on putting in a french drain around the pool just beyond the uprights to help with draining off any splash over or any sort of runoff that would try to work it's way under the pool.

    I figure 8" beyond the pool itself will be kept at the same elevation, eventually filled with pink champagne and charcoal stone (the rest of the landscaping uses that combo below bushes and such), and then a 2ft wide paver "coping" of sorts. Just enough that I won't have to walk on any grass while doing maintenance around the pool.

    On the northern side of the pool there will be an expansive paver patio that will go up to that "coping", extend the length of the bushes over to the other light post, then go out to a 14ft garden circle that will have a 7ft tall water fountain in the center of it. On the side away from the bushes it will extend to the concrete patio at the back of the house where the 10-person hot tub currently resides. This should tie all aspects of the yard together and allow for not needing to walk on the grass to get anywhere. The patio will be basically 20ft x 40ft (location for a tented gazebo with a outdoor dining set along with an outdoor kitchen with serving peninsula and bar) with a 10ft x 12ft build-out near the garden for an outdoor living area (sofa/chairs/table set).

    This is all being done in 8"x4"x2.5" Holland pavers in red-black with a charcoal border. I already have over 5000 sitting in my yard with another 1000 waiting at the store in case I need them.

    The fill under the pavers will be traffic-bond, which is a 1/4" limestone and dust aggregate which basically sets up like concrete once it dries. It is the perfect base for pavers where you don't need water permeability. That along with polymeric sand to fill the joints and basically the entire are is "capped off" and a complete watershed. Thus my concern with water draining into the "old pool area" is abated as much as possible since the above ground pool and french drain should do as much as possible to keep water from infiltrating below and the limestone traffic-bond and pavers with polymeric sand will shed water everywhere else. The pool is planned to be about 1 inch higher than the the pavers.

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    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    After all the back and forth on a seasonal or permanent pool, I started my quest for a nice used above ground pool. Given the scope of what I was doing and the ever so slim possibility of any sort of "catastrophic" pool failure due to where and how I was putting the pool up, I felt it made the best "financial" sense to go with an inexpensive used pool.

    I ended up finding an AquaLeader Reflexion 27ft above ground pool for a decent price that I had to take down myself. Turns out with such a bad winter they had the liner tear and the pool was empty already. So, me and my oldest son (who is 16, 6'5" tall and pretty strong) head over to take the pool down. While doing this the owner doesn't come out to lend a hand or even offer to do anything. I am fairly talented mechanically, pretty strong myself, so we have the pool disassembled within an hour and within another half hour have all the bottom rails and uprights out of the impacted soil. Since this is an all-resin construction pool outside of the steel wall I notice almost all the uprights have the bottom tabs broken that go into the bases. I also notice that one of the bottom rails slightly cracked a little while removing it, but was still intact, but two of the bottom rails were cracked almost all the way through and based on the amount of dirt impaction into the cracks it was obvious that it happened when the pool was assembled (ie, they didn't work their way around sliding the bottom rails into the bases, they got them all setup and tried getting the bottom rails into the final base and cracked both rails). I mention this to the seller, explained I was on a tight budget, at which point he starts being a complete jerk about things, saying he isn't dropping anything off the price, and he starts saying that those breaks happened while I removed them. I showed him the slight crack on the one that was intact as an example of how clean it would be if that were the case and he starts going off on a tangent on how he could get so much more for the pool than what we agreed upon and started getting nasty. I told my son to grab the tools and get in the van and we left with some unkind words being spoken. So, this jerk got his pool taken down for free and my son got a lesson on how nasty, unreasonable and greedy people can be.

    So, our second option on a pool was one that was located over a hundred miles away. I decided to wait until my pool permit was approved before making the trek. Got my pool permit, made arrangements to get the pool on the same day my kids got out of school for the summer and me and my oldest make the trek to go get the pool. Nice thing about this one was it was already taken down. It included the pool, princess stairs, pump, sand filter, solar cover, liner and a pair of 4ft x 10ft solar heaters.

    I did my research and the pool is a Wilbar Morada RTR 54" 27ft round pool. Very nice looking and built in a way to be quite solid, with steel uprights bolting into resin bottom plates, a resin bottom rail the fits securely into the plates, steel top plates that bolt to the uprights along with a steel top stabilizer ring that fit securely to the top plates, which I preferred over a complete resin pool with no structural rigidity outside of plastic pieces fitting/snapping together. If the proposed location was a "virigin" packed soil location I would prefer the all-resin pool, but only as a "brand new" in the box pool, not a "used" pool. The Morada RTR gives me a bit more confidence in regards to stability and rigidity.

    Well, we get there and the pool wall was wrapped in a circle and was intact, ie, it never had the stainless section unbolted and was creased to get it into a roll. The crease wasn't bad, so I figure I could get it out without issue. We look at the rest of the equipment and outside of the ripped liner the solar heaters were bowed and warped. So we negotiated to near half-price taking off the liner, the heaters and the princess stairs (we won't have a deck so I still need to get outside stairs anyways, so it made sense to not take those either). The guy selling it was really nice about things, picked this up from a buddy to help him out and in general was great to deal with.

    So, we loaded everything up, which was all still full of dirt an gunk, and headed home. The next morning we unloaded the van (big Explorer 1500 AWD conversion van with the middle seats taken out) with 4 of my 5 kids giving a hand getting things unloaded. Then started in the complete teardown of all the various pieces, removing the stainless section from the wall and laying the wall out, cleaning both sides, removing the crease and rolling it back up properly. I got the entire family (except for the 3 year old) in on the cleanup operation. It was an arduous task, took two days and included not only cleaning and scrubbing all the pieces, but also counting parts, going through the motor and filter and in general something akin to pulling teeth.

    In the end we have all the parts sans a couple of screws, the pump had bearings that howled (and upon tear-down the impeller was fused to the motor shaft and shattered so there is no hope, a new pump is in order), a few scratches on some of the uprights and wall that I am hoping I can find touch-up paint to match, no rust to worry about anywhere, the stainless wall still had the protecting sheeting on one side (which was removed), the sand filter is missing some o-rings but completely intact (it is a Sta-Rite T-210WF sand filter that is sized properly for the pool, ie 8hr turnover) and even has the sand shield to protect the collector hub assembly. All in all I am really happy, as I now just need to source a liner and a pump.

  3. Back To Top    #3

    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    In regards to the pool build itself, I figure I am going to use polyurethane sheets for the pool bottom instead of sand. I figure 1-1/2" white poly foam sheeting is the most cost effective. I will also get the poly foam cove to go with it. I do not plan on a Gorilla Pad or anything else on this build and will use the red see-through insulation tape to hold the foam sheets together. I am still up in the air in regards to using foam on the walls, but it is a possibility.

    The pool originally had an overlap liner, but I am thinking of going with a J-bead or Uni-bead liner to simplify things.

    In regards to plumbing I am planning on reusing the original equipment pad behind the garage and installing 2" PVC from the pad to behind where the pool will be. I am planning on running two 2" PVC runs (one for suction and one for return) as well as a 3/4" PVC run for an automatic pool cleaner. I figure they will pop up behind the pool and I will use flexible PVC from there to the skimmer/return/vac fittings. It is about a 70ft run from the equipment pad to the pool, so I figure 2" PVC along with a beefier pump will work better overall. I am still trying to figure out pump size, but I believe the range is something that can handle 42-47GPM @ 83ft of head. I do believe that puts me more into the 1.5hp in-ground pool pump models compared to an above ground pool pump.

    That is about where we are at on this. I will update the thread with pics of various things as we go through them. This is a huge project for us.

    Most of the neighbors are supportive and nice about things, but we have the almost "required" nasty old neighbor who doesn't like to hear kids making noise having fun, complains about an "above ground pool reducing property values" (never mind the fact that his house has the lowest property value on the block and mine has the highest, let alone the fact that I pay almost twice as much in taxes than he does) and in general is a "know it all" that tries to give his opinions as "facts" (he tried saying pools aren't allowed per deed restrictions, and since I just bought my home in 2012 I have all the paperwork and it clearly states "swimming pools are allowed" with no further delineation of in-ground or above ground, let alone the fact that there is at least 2 dozen pools, both in-ground and above ground in the subdivision). He also had enough nerve to spray grass/weed killer on the grass growing on/under my fence. Now, since we are redoing everything I could care less, but since I own not only the fence but a full 6" beyond the fence to the lot line I found it highly aggressive for someone to just take the attitude they are going to kill and brown out everything at the fence. In the "discussion" I had with him where I politely asked him to never touch anything at the fence ever again, I was polite, level-headed and didn't give the slightest hint of being as boiling ****** I was getting based on his poor attitude, his nastiness towards "your kids make too much noise" (which is hilarious as all the rest of the neighbors say they are shocked how quiet and polite the kids are and that they are far from being a nuisance) and in general his quite visible disdain for us as neighbors, when we have been nothing but polite to him and his wife (and his wife is one of those where you will say "Hello!" or "Good morning!" to and she will flat out ignore you while looking at you just 15 feet away. The only positive is that we know they are probably going to be putting their house up for sale at some point here, since they are in their mid-60s and their 5 kids have been moved out for at least 5-6 years or so. I could honestly care less about them as long as they don't try to kill anything on my property anymore. But, he gets one "freebie" from me in regards to being rude and obnoxious. Next time I won't be so polite if he says anything that is out of line. I won't be rude, it isn't in my character, but I will assert a level of defining standards on how things will be conducted if there is further problems. After that I doubt I will ever hear from him again. I also know that the previous owner of my house only had rude things to say about this guy, and now I can see why.

  4. Back To Top    #4

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    laceygirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Canberra Australia

    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    Hi there, how's your build coming along? Could you post some pics?
    Intex Rectangle 18 x 9 x 52', 4544 gallon (18000 litres), 0.75 hp pool pump, 100 sqft Zodiac Titan Cartridge Filter - 40mm, Stenner Peristaltic Pump chlorine injection system, Intex Over The Wall Skimmer, Intex Fittings with 40mm plumbing Lil Patch Of Heaven. Build/Construction

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    Mod Squad zea3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Houston, Texas

    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    That sounds like quite a project you have going. Good luck with the construction and the nasty neighbor!
    TFP Moderator
    Helpful links: TF Test Kits,TFP Pool School, PoolMath
    Vogue 21' round AG, Pentair 1 hp 2 speed pump, 36 sq ft DE filter, Hayward S180T 150# sand filter, Houston, Texas
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    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    I will have a complete set of pics as things progress, starting with pre-marking and then through the various stages...

    I can also post a pic of the overview of the project later this evening... It was done with LayOut as part of the SketchUp Pro software.

  7. Back To Top    #7

    TFP Guide
    laceygirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Canberra Australia

    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    I'm pulling up a chair...
    Intex Rectangle 18 x 9 x 52', 4544 gallon (18000 litres), 0.75 hp pool pump, 100 sqft Zodiac Titan Cartridge Filter - 40mm, Stenner Peristaltic Pump chlorine injection system, Intex Over The Wall Skimmer, Intex Fittings with 40mm plumbing Lil Patch Of Heaven. Build/Construction

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    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    I apologize for my previous post... Reworded it properly... That is what you get when you have 4 conversations going on with your input needed all while trying to post something...

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    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    Well, I got in my o-rings for the Sta-Rite sand filter and have that all ready to go sans sand. I also ordered the liner, ended up with a standard beaded liner, "Grand Tile" is the design, and I went with a 20-gauge liner. I have heard positive and negative on both sides about thickness, so we will see this winter with this one. Got a great deal on it, even though I had to buy the bead receiver strips. It was that or I could have gone with a standard blue overlap liner for even less, but I figure for the slight extra cost we would go with something that would look nice. I also ordered up the foam cove for the build as well.

    The piping will be picked up this weekend. I am just glad we will have some heavy equipment here to make that part of things go much easier. Would suck to dig a trench for piping over 70ft long and about 2 feet deep by hand.

    I am still on the lookout for a nice ladder and a decent pump for the setup, but beyond that I am all set.

  10. Back To Top    #10

    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    Well, I ordered up a Confer A-Frame ladder model 7200. I think the color of it will go well with the Morada resin colors. I got the shipment confirmation for that as well as the liner, the cove and the bead receivers. I also ordered up sand for the sand filter as well.

    I am still debating on the pump needed. I would really like a 2-speed pump, but I am having a hard time finding a 230v unit for a decent price. I may just end up going with a 1hp in-ground single speed pump and be done with it.

    Besides that I have to order the bonding wire and lugs, some conduit and connectors for the pump, some hardline conduit to replace what was removed on the back of the garage and I need to go out and dig up where they buried the original suction/return lines. They are are MIA I will have to figure out a new plan to run ones under the sidewalk. If not I will just have to figure out the best way to use them to feed new lines to the location I want to use. I am pretty sure if they still exist they are only 1.5" lines. If they are 2" lines I am all set with little refab needed.

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    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    Well, start getting in the remaining things to get the pool installed...

    I must say I have a bone to pick with Fed-Ex, since they did a "drop and run" not once, but twice today. The first time was when they dropped the liner off, since they put it on the front stoop and just took off without ringing the doorbell or anything. Not a big deal, except the box was beat-up and had two tears in it. One was not only a 5 inch tear, but the internal bag that has the liner in it was also torn open.

    So, I call up the company I ordered the liner from, upon their instruction I open the package, checkout the liner and it seems to be fully intact. Considering the deal I got on the liner I am glad it is all good. They did make a note on the order just in case I do have a problem while installing it. So at least I am covered.

    The next delivery was 4 more boxes of stuff, including the cove, the bead receiver, a new widemouth skimmer, and the ladder... That delivery guy pulls the same things, this time stacking up all the boxes near the garage doors between the cars. Again, this guy drops it all off and leaves without ringing the doorbell!!!

    All of these boxes were intact, except for the ladder box that was also a bit beat up. Not surprising since it weighs over 50lbs and was boxed with no packing materials inside... I did open it and everything looks fine.

    But, outside of trying to decide on pool lighting I am faced with my last major decision, and that is the pool pump itself.

    Since I am WAAAAYYYYYY over budget on things I am considering just going with a single speed 1hp in-ground pool pump for cheap this year and then upgrading to a 3/4hp dual-speed pump next year. That way I can plumb in both pumps and use the 3/4hp pump on low for 24/7 filtering/circulation and then use the bigger pump plumbed with a dedicated suction port for an automated pool vacuum/robot on a timer... I already have the electrical to run two pumps with already existing timers, so it just makes sense. I already have dual-contact disconnects near the equipment pad, so I can just configure the timer and then use the disconnect to pull the pump out of circuit when the vacuum/robot isn't in the pool.

    I figure if I can keep the expense for the pump down I have enough room to add the lighting this year still.

    Oh, and I don't even want to start talking about the idea I had where I say forget the above ground pool and just excavate out the existing pool and drop in another in-ground setup. Looking up pricing for in-ground kits has already made me start waffling on doing just that more than once this week. Since it has become obvious I am "stuck" doing over 70-80% of this entire backyard redo by myself (since my landscaping buddy has flaked out some), I figure what is the different between excavating with a backhoe or just using a skidsteer to clear out the surface???

    At least I feel better that things will be done to my "standards" vs arguing with someone who might not be as meticulous as I am to get things done "right".

  12. Back To Top    #12
    Taterfink's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    NE Florida

    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    lacy girl, you've got the chairs. I'll bring the popcorn.

    I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures!
    Angie M.
    AG, 26' x 52" Intex Ultra Frame, vinyl, 14667 gal. And LOVING it!!! Hayward S15922S 1HP, 2SP pump and Hayward S220T Sand Filter. Hard plumbed with PVC, added second return, intex SWG, Hydro Pool widemouth skimmer. Set up in May 2012!
    N.E. Florida. TF100 - Best investment EVER! (Well, for the pool anyway)

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    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    I will get pics of the "before" this weekend...

    I ordered up the final piece, that being the pump. Went with a Pentair Dynamo 2-speed 1.5hp above ground pump. Should do just fine for my setup, even though I do have to reconfigure the wiring for 115v. That is OK since I can actually configure both timers, one controlling the on/off of the pump itself and the other controlling the low/high speed operation. Either that, or I will just configure this pump on the one timer for 24/7 circulation and maybe use that timer to control low/high speed and then use the other timer for a second pump for an automated floor vacuum, that way I could run the sand filter with the vacuum and then put a cartridge or DE filter on the skimmer with the Dynamo... Point is I want to run and plumb this all once and have my options open.

    But, the good news is my landscaping buddy came through and fully commited to the landscaping aspects (such as prepping the area for the pool) and knows I will handle the pool construction aspects so he is happy he is off the hook with that. Honestly it doesn't look all that difficult, especially if I have a hardened, compacted aggregate surface to assemble the pool on. Honestly that seems to be a good 80-90% of the pool construction, so I am covered there.

    I will be doing some investigative digging around the equipment pad area to see what is left (if anything) of the original plumbing and either way I will plan out that part of things. If things go well I may just have the equipment in and plumbed on that side of things before we even get to break ground on where the pool will be located. Would be nice to know that once the pool is up it is just a matter of connecting a few flex-PVC pipes with unions and we are done.

    And I figure I will hold off on the lighting until after the pool is up... it is a matter of just "plugging it in" so it shouldn't be a big deal... Even though I would like to run whatever wiring is needed for that under the pavers, but since I actually bought the compactor is should be no big deal either way, since I can just pull a few pavers up, trench a bit, run the cable (all are 12v low-voltage lights) and then put everything back and re-compact the area when done.

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    Well, since this last week seamed more like Seattle than normal Wisconsin weather (ie, we had rain/thunderstorms almost every day), looks like my backyard plans are put on hold for at least another two weeks.

    So, in the meantime I have been busy getting the rest of the pool stuff "taken care of" as much as possible.

    I scanned craigslist and found a great deal on an older, but (mostly) new pool heater. It is a Jandy LG250P (just like the Laars LG250P) propane fueled 250k BTU millivolt standing pilot unit. The only thing "used" on it was the heat exchanger (guy swapped it out into his natural gas heater when he had a problem with the other one) but when that heater had a pilot/gas valve issue he swapped it back and sold the unit. I checked it all over and after fixing some sheet metal (he obviously dropped something on the top of the heater), basically tearing it apart (nice and clean being new) and rebuilding it all, the only thing I needed to "replace" was the inlet/outlet flanges since one was MIA. Oh, I also need to convert it to natural gas from propane, but that is the easy (and cheap) conversion direction.

    Well after looking up parts I was in sticker shock since the flanges and gaskets run $150-180 for the set. Well, since I paid only $280 for the heater itself I decided to fabricate some flanges instead. I picked up some 2" floor mount pipe flanges, cut them into diamond shapes (that match the original flanges) and cleaned them all up, then figured out the proper hole spacing and drilled the 7/16" holes needed. I picked up some heavy-duty "spud" washers that were about 1/4"+ thick that had a nice raised inner lip so they will "lock-in" to the flanges. Bolted them up with new stainless socket-cap bolts and washers and they are perfect with no leaks.

    I also ordered up the $10 gas valve regulator conversion kit so the gas valve can be adjusted to the natural gas pressures, also a single orifice so I can check the size needed to drill out the other 9 orifices and I will "wing" the pilot orifice size change (but it is simple to go off the same ratio difference that is used on the other orifices). After that it will be all set for natural gas.

    Oh, I also noticed it was missing an internal rain shield, so that will get ordered after I get it up and running. It is a $70 part, so that will make the total cost somewhere in the $420 price range. Not bad for a 250k BTU heater.

  15. Back To Top    #15

    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    Oh, forgot to mention, I also started planning out the plumbing on the equipment pad.

    I will say it seems crazy with all the plumbing standards used on all the darn fittings on the equipment. The pump output is a buttress fitting, the Sta-Right fittings are specific unions as well.

    I ended up picking up a Pentair Dynamo stainless 2-speed 1.5hp pump for $160 shipped off ebay. They said a flange was bent and there was a chip on the pot. The chip has nothing to do with anything and the reason the pump was a "return" was because the impeller touched the housing ever so slightly. Loosening the bolts and pushing the housing over and no more interference. The pump works great and I ended up finding a liquid-tite 6ft 1/2" "whip" for wiring it up for only $11. I rewired everything for 120v and wired it all up and everything works as expected. The timer works and I double checked everything for the extra circuit when I add a chlorine pump. And I also found out I have another set of wires already run, so I may just add another outlet near the pool pad. It will be a GFCI outlet. I figure I will probably put my smokers where the grill is currently sitting once I move the grill to the new patio and since they are electric they will use the outlet.

    All in all I have been finding some killer deals to finish off the pool.

    Now, only if the weather would cooperate.

  16. Back To Top    #16
    mjames0120's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Florence, SC

    Re: New Build..AGP with In-Ground plumbing..Over old IGP location..w/1200 sq ft patio

    thread is worthless without pictures
    Intex Ultra frame 20" x 48"
    SWG and sand filter
    deck - ladder is going away after this summer
    Going to steps hopefully in a few weeks,
    * Little bit paradise in the country *

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