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Thread: scratching head...need help/suggestions

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    scratching head...need help/suggestions

    Pool pic2.jpgpool pic 4.jpg

    First picture is when we filled the pool and last picture is now:

    Hi Guys....Its been a while but im back. Im Guardwife2 from Central IL......... We had a FABULOUS pool season last yr but we had water trucked in...This yr we decided to use our icky town water which has alot of iron in it. We also drained the entire pool this year..gave it a good cleaning and started over. Not b/c we needed to but after the horrible winter we had, we didnt' want to take a chance with any problems this yr. (we actually did the same thing last yr prior to water being trucked in...we dumped and pumped.). So here is my issues: We filled 7600 gallons of water into our pool...Water was really yellow but clear. So we tested it and at that time (I dont have the readings on that specific day anymore) all was pretty good. So we put in a little chlorine, some Metal out, Algae preventative and let it do its magic....it pretty well stayed yellow color. So we were told to put Iron out in it, its not a pool chemical but something you can use around your house to get rust out of say clothes etc. So we did. And it changed the water to a darker yellow but still clear. So we were then told we could take batting out of a pillow and attach it to the inflow hose and it would help filter out the rust..we did that and got alot of it out. The sock/batting filter we fixed went from white to an orange brown-normal rust color appearance. We were then told to let it sit a while and let the iron out work..well it never did work. It still remained yellow but clear. So at this point we decided to go get a good water testing done at a pool store..they helped us tremendously last yr..so we trust them. Here is the reading on 5-31-14:

    CYA-not tested (however I tested when we got home and it was zero-non in the pool)
    TA was 400
    Total Ch .4
    FC 0
    PH >8.8
    Hardness 261
    Borates: 9
    Copper 0
    Iron 0 (we still question this b/c water was still rusty in appearance)
    Hazy/cloudy NO
    Any algae detected NO

    We were told to put the following in it: 1-to bring down TA and PH put Muriatic acid in...lots of it but over a few days to do it slowly. 2-add a scale inhibitor to bring down the hardness and 3- Add 3 bags of something called Burn out-its a shock treatment. We did as suggested and our water immediately turned a sea foam blue and is now very cloudy. However, we decided to add an algeacide too b/c rain was coming.

    Here is the readings as of this morning 06-04-14:

    Reading off of the small tubes for CL and PH:
    CL-5 highest reading on it/PH 7.2

    FC 19.5 (we took it upon ourselves to shock it last night b/c rain was coming and water was not reading a lot of chlorine..it was reading chlorine but not more than 1-2 CC/FC)
    CC 1.5
    CYA 10 (we even added more of this last night still not holding a good reading)
    CA 260
    TA high still 450

    Two yrs ago we had a similar problem and was told by you guys we had algae..so we literally spent the whole summer adding bleach to the pool and never did change in appearance till we added a flouccuant. Once we added that..everything settled to the bottom and we vacuumed it up and was able to swim (please see old post from me). I firmly believe we had a metal issue that yr and not an algae problem. I see the same thing occurring this yr too. We have had algae and this is not the same thing as then vs now. We had very heavy rain last night and our pool over filled so I had to back wash some out and did the testing after the backwash process. We have also added a filter cleaner to the pump and pump is working good..great output/input.

    We are wondering if by adding the Iron out non pool item chemical if this didn't cause the water to react to it? We also wonder if we should dump half of the water out and refill with a filter on the hose? Like I said..the pool water was yellow from the rust but clear when we first refilled w/o the filter on the hose. Im open to any and all suggestion. And yes I to have a test kit from you guys, lol, so know I am using it.

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4.5 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly liner Hayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.
    Pool-I need you know..to clear up..it's Hot...Crying in cloudy water:(

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly linerHayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    Metal problems give clear transparent colored water, as in the first photo. Metal problems do not cause cloudiness, as in the second photo. It is possible to have more than one problem at the same time, but that is less common.

    Your very high TA level is going to cause problems with calcium clouding. You can't really deal with that until the FC level comes down, as the PH test is useless at high FC levels.

    CYA is very low, which is probably why your chlorine level was low. Remember that it can take up to a week for added CYA/stabilizer to show up on the CYA test, so don't raise it again for a little while if you just added more.

    CC above 0.5 means you need to continue SLAMing the pool until CC goes down to 0.5 or lower.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    Ok..so keep dumping Liquid Shock in it? would that make the CC go up not down?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ok..so keep dumping Liquid Shock in it? would that make the CC go up not down? Also, per the calculator....if Im going by my CYA reading now...I am already at Shock level?
    Pool-I need you know..to clear up..it's Hot...Crying in cloudy water:(

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly linerHayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.

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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    Need to add, it did not turn cloudy till we added Iron out and other pool chemicals into. That is when it turned cloudy. We added Iron out as suggested (it is not a pool chemical but a house hold chemical that gets iron out of clothes, salt machines, etc), algeacide, and the chemicals we were told to put in..so My question was..could it be from all of that that caused the cloudiness? if so..should we pump out half of the water and start over to dilute what is in there?
    Pool-I need you know..to clear up..it's Hot...Crying in cloudy water:(

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly linerHayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.

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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    hello? Anyone?
    Pool-I need you know..to clear up..it's Hot...Crying in cloudy water:(

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly linerHayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    I'd wait a couple days and see if it goes away. Some of the metal products react with Calcium and precipitate it into a cloudy mess.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    Maybe someone else will know for sure but I believe the Iron Out product you are using may not remove the iron from the water, it may only put it back into solution. you'll need another product to prevent the redeposit of the iron back into the pool.
    20500 gallon Grecian type 2 pool built in 1980's, Vinyl liner approx 2001
    2 Skimmers, 1 Dedicated Vac Line and 3 returns
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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    thank you! We ended up flocking the pool last night..it is holding chlorine very well. This morning the water is still a little hazy BUT we can see the bottom and stairs now..prior to this..we couldn't at all. HUGE change in a positive way. We are letting the water sit the rest of the day as well and tonight and will vacuum to waste tmrw. We do have a filter we can put on the hose to filter out the Iron. We didnt' use it to fill the pool b/c it takes so long to do so with it. But we wont be using that much water when we vacuum to waste. We also have a metal out/control from a pool store we have used in the past and it works pretty good. We did see a slight rust color laying on the stairs this morning. We have seen this in the past and know it is iron/metals in the water. Ive heard the longer you let the floccuant sit..the better. So that is why we are not vacuumin to waste today. crossing fingers we are on the right track. We actually did this two yrs ago and it cleared up within a day or two. Ill keep in touch!

    thanks!!!!
    Pool-I need you know..to clear up..it's Hot...Crying in cloudy water:(

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly linerHayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.

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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    ok...got a new question...we flocked the pool and let it sit overnight and all day and vacuumed this morning...water was clear and we could see the stairs/liner, etc. We vacuumed to waste to get the stuff off of the pool bottom from the flock. We have ZERO algae...from what we saw coming out (foamy stuff like you see from too much algeacide, etc) we think it was alot of chemicals we had dumped in prior to my post on here. Before vacuuming out the pool, our chlorine levels were HIGH, EXTREMELY HIGH. Im talking we put over 50 drops and the thing was still a pink. So we stopped. We actually vacuumed to waste two to three times only dropping water below skimmer and then adding more water, with a filter on the hose to keep metals out of the pool. Pool is a very nice blue color and we see no residual inside of the pool or on sides. However, once we started the pump back up the water did get a cloudy/hazy look to it but we can still see the bottom of the steps just not the print of the liner now. We know we left some of the stuff from the flock on the bottom so we figured it has gotten stirred up again from pump being on. So I let the pump filter for a few hours and did a primarily water test. Here is what I got using the test kit suggested on the site:

    CL-bright yellow, was a horrible orange, so Im suspecting a high of 5 or more
    PH-apricot color 7.2

    FC 20.5/CC 2.0
    CH 200
    TA 390
    CYA 0 (however we have added some to water atleast 4 days ago)

    We have also added a bottle and half of Acid to bring down the PH b/c it was off the charts on first test. We added the acid before and after my post. (To see original reading on pool, see above in post) TA was high originally too, still is, and we were told the acid would help lower it as well but so far it is still remaining high. So how can the TA be high but PH is low? Is this a false reading due to the Liquid shock we have added? We have added 4-5 gallons of Liquid shock at 10% chlorine for several days as suggested. I did the Pool Math and this is what is it telling me:

    http://www.troublefreepool.com/calc.html

    If you cant see suggestions, it is saying to add the following ONLY: ZERO bleach, given a TA of 390, Add 48 oz by weight or 42 oz by volume of washing soda or 96 oz soda ash or add 92 oz by weight or by volume of borax. and Add 41 oz by weight or 42 oz by volume of stabilizer
    or add 105 oz of liquid stabilizer for CYA.

    My question is: should I give it a few hours for another round of test? Especially since we have added fresh water by vacuuming to waste/refilling? Im afraid we are getting off results b/c of the high chlorine and new water? We have added CYA to pool and I know if you add to much that can be a bad thing. Also, if we add in stuff to bring up the PH, wont the TA raise as well? Should we continue with the Acid till we get the TA down? Advice please

    thanks!!!
    Pool-I need you know..to clear up..it's Hot...Crying in cloudy water:(

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly linerHayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.

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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    here are a new pic of pool..ignore the shadow from the huge tree in neighbors yard....its getting better. Before we couldn't even see the steps. prior to vacuuming to waste after flocking, we couldn't see the bottom at all...this morning before vacuuming we could see liner, bottom of pool, etc. its stirred up now. pool pic 5.jpg
    Pool-I need you know..to clear up..it's Hot...Crying in cloudy water:(

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly linerHayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    If the TA is indeed 390, vigorous aeration will raise the pH with no additional chemicals.

    The pH test is always suspect with super high FC. The TA test works, but the colors might shift from green>pink to blue>yellow. The results are still valid, though.

    Use the search box for aerator and check out some of the pictures of methods people have used.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    Ok...thank you!

    should I wait a while to retest since we have refilled after vacuuming to waste and go from there on pool results?
    Pool-I need you know..to clear up..it's Hot...Crying in cloudy water:(

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly linerHayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by guardwife2 View Post
    Ok...thank you!

    should I wait a while to retest since we have refilled after vacuuming to waste and go from there on pool results?
    Yes, exactly. There's no point messing around with water you're about to dump. After you refill and it has time to mix, get another set of readings.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    ok...thank you! Ill have my husband rig up an ariator soon. He is at work right now.
    Pool-I need you know..to clear up..it's Hot...Crying in cloudy water:(

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly linerHayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.

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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    Hi there...just took new test results..its 7 pm here in Central Il and about 2-3 hours btwn test. Here are my results...

    CL-btwn 3-5..its diffently getting a lighter yellow in tube but still a bright yellow
    PH still apricot color 7.2

    FC 9.0 (was 20.5 so a loss of 11.0? that seem right/possible?)
    CC 1.5 (was 2.0 is that normal?)
    CYA 0 still
    TA is now 340 (was 390 is that good it has changed? )

    So at this point..what do you suggest I do? Im going to the pool math and input my levels there but want some sound advice from one of you guys. Thanks!
    Pool-I need you know..to clear up..it's Hot...Crying in cloudy water:(

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly linerHayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.

  16. Back To Top    #16
    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    You've eliminated any ammonia you may have had now, so add some CYA tomorrow (Target 30) and keep up the SLAM. Yes, CC's are normal during the SLAM. They will be all over the place.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    Ok...I can do that....Per the SLAM...I saw the chart and it says for CYA of 20, min FC of 2, Target FC of 3 and Shock FC of 10...so Im to keep the SLAM/shock level at 10 correct? What if I am not at 20 on the CYA, which im not? is 9 an ok level to keep since it is not at 20 right now and then adjust as it goes up?
    Pool-I need you know..to clear up..it's Hot...Crying in cloudy water:(

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly linerHayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.

  18. Back To Top    #18
    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by guardwife2 View Post
    Ok...I can do that....Per the SLAM...I saw the chart and it says for CYA of 20, min FC of 2, Target FC of 3 and Shock FC of 10...so Im to keep the SLAM/shock level at 10 correct? What if I am not at 20 on the CYA, which im not? is 9 an ok level to keep since it is not at 20 right now and then adjust as it goes up?
    For zero CYA, SLAM is 10 FC. Check poolmath. You shouldn't go any lower than that. After you add the CYA granules, maybe the first bleach addition afterwards after can be 10, but after that, target 12FC for 30 CYA.
    16K freeform gunite with spa; Pentair 4000 DE filter; Century Whisperflow 1 HP; Pentair Minimax heater.
    Troublefree does not mean Maintenancefree. It's like brushing your teeth: You can spend a couple minutes a day and pennies a week or go to the dentist once a year and spend several thousand dollars.
    A pool is like a pet - you have to feed it every day, even the days you don't want to play with it!

  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    ok...heading outside now to add liquid shock/bleach..it is 10% chlorine. Ill test about an hour afterwards...tmrw add CYA correct? keep at SLAM levels per level of CYA....during this process I should not be concerned with PH or TA correct? per pool math it said to add 1 cup 1 oz and 3 tsp of chlorine so it has been added.
    Pool-I need you know..to clear up..it's Hot...Crying in cloudy water:(

    7600 gallons 18 ft around 4 ft tall, sand, AG and vinly linerHayward Pump 1 HP, sand filter is hayward also SP0714T/SP014TE series Vari-flo, Date pool was installed May 04-2009.

  20. Back To Top    #20
    Casey's Avatar
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    Re: scratching head...need help/suggestions

    Disregard pH and TA until your pool is clear. Once you get the pool clear then you can have at the TA.
    I'd bet you my bikini you'll never get TFP water from a pool store!

    24' Sharkline Venture De Filter

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