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Thread: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

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    Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    I started slamming with liquid chlorine over a week ago. Granted the pool was terrible since the owner (girlfriend) didn't want to put it to sleep last year with the proper level of chemicals so it was pretty nasty. I took out about 4 gallons of leaves and pine needles from the bottom but I can't see the bottom. Have been vacuuming blind and brushing but the pool doesn't seem to be getting better. When vacuuming I'm not getting any more material off the bottom so I'm pretty sure I've suck up all the organic matter I can but still I'm not getting any clearer.
    I'm using up the 3" chlorine sticks she bought so I have the TA up at about 125 until I run out of those.
    She wants to use the pool store stuff and I've had better luck following the simpler and less expensive method here up until this year. BUT, if it doesn't clear up soon she will be spending big $$$ on anything the pool store suggests to clear it up.


    FC 7.5 this AM brought back up to 12
    pH 7.5
    TA 128
    Total hardness 251
    CYA 32
    cloudy, slightly green haze and still can't see the shallow (4') bottom.

    I have added Utikem Algaecide. Total of two gallons each a few days apart. Each gallon treats 25,000.

    I'm getting ready to go get some DE for the sand filter and see if that will help, it's never taken this long to get the pool clear.
    Any ideas or am I just in too big a hurry ??
    '70s IG Vinyl 32K gal, Lazy L, Hayward SuperPump 1.5hp 120V, S240 Sand Filter W/DE
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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    From black and evil to blue and cloudy in a week is pretty good. Usually a SLAM on a swamp takes about two weeks.
    That algaecide probably didn't do much but react with the chlorine. It works better as a preventative than a cure.

    What test kit are you using to get those numbers?

    The solution is more bleach and more filtering. At this point the DE is probably a good idea. Stick around the house so you can keep an eye on the pressure, because it will go up really fast. You might as well raise the water level a couple inches now so that when you backwash, you're already covered.
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    It is common for the filter to talk a week to clear up the water after all of the algae is dead. Often even longer if it is a sand filter.

    Any debris left on the bottom will greatly slow down the process.

    The algaecide isn't helping. Hopefully it isn't causing any problems either.

    A good status check is to do an overnight FC loss test. That will tell you where in the process you are.
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help
    This is gonna' sound VERY snarky but the pool store will love you. They will gladly provide you an endless array of "magic....... might help" products if you are willing to buy them.

    The SLAM process involves HOLDING your chlorine at 12 ppm and not letting it go below that until your pool is crystal clear......not adding it back to 12 ppm when you test and get 7.5 ppm.

    The SLAM article is VERY specific about holding chlorine, brushing, cleaning your filter and running your pump 24/7. If you only do around 1/2 of that, you will get the half-way results you are getting.

    You and significant other need to get on the same page. If she is determined to have little faith in what we teach, I don't see how you can keep your pool clear ever.

    Snarky and harsh, I know. My intent is to help you get your pool clear, not be a hard-nose. We know that what we teach works and it works in every pool.......it's all H2O

    I would suggest you re-read the SLAM article and follow the instructions there to a "T". Don't add anything that "might help" and, importantly, don't leave out the salient points of chlorine, brushing, cleaning your filter, etc.
    Dave S.
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    From what I see, you are not even using one of the recommended test kits ... so that is certainly not helping with the SLAM process.
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    The test results are from the pool store. I'm working on her to get a proper kit but she's not easy to convince. The algaecide was to placate her as she always uses it. Now I'm being told it needs "flocking" or something to make the particles clump. I'm trying to save her money and frankly I hate having to mix the dry pool store chlorine which is her preference. Already had a fight over using muriatic acid as she thinks it will melt or at least damage the new liner. She used muriatic acid to clean something and the brush, sponge ... whatever melted so now it's the devils chemical. All I know is it dropped the PH down right where the pool calculator said it would. Same with the baking soda. Rather than spend three or four times the money on the same thing from the pool store I grabbed a bag at Walmart and again using the calculator hit the level I aimed for. Because the numbers work I'm thinking the people at the pool store, at least this one actually do know how to test. Other problem I have is that we fight over the size. She thinks it's 40K and I measured it and did the math. I also used a couple on-line calculators and it's 30-32K. Being a lazy L it's a bit difficult to be exact. Adding chemicals and using 31 or 32K gets me to the number but somewhere long before me somehow she was told 40K and I'm wrong.

    Sooooo, it's not just the pool I'm fighting. So much for my personal problems but it's part of what's driving me nuts and partly why I have some limits I'd love to ditch !! I'm just happy I slipped the baking soda in when she wasn't looking so I didn't have to try and explain what the ..... I was doing (or thinking) putting that in her pool !!

    Will try for the overnight FC test this evening. I do have an inexpensive HTH 6 way.
    Thanks for the confirmation on the DE.
    '70s IG Vinyl 32K gal, Lazy L, Hayward SuperPump 1.5hp 120V, S240 Sand Filter W/DE
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh View Post
    This is gonna' sound VERY snarky but the pool store will love you.
    Not a problem. They don't love me as I usually just get the tests done but they do love her. I don't want to get on her page with the SNAKE oil ( wonderful attachment) from the pool store and I fully agree we should be on the same page but it's not something I can make happen, only hope she comes around. Every time I step in there they try to sell me a box of stuff to "help" me. So far she isn't willing to trust me with the pool. It's OK for me to do all the work but she wants to make all the decisions. That's life and all I can do is work on her and try to get her to see it works without adding all the **** from the pool store.

    Just doing the best I can but I see now I have to raise the chlorine higher so it holds as I can't be there enough to monitor as closely as it needs. That's the nice thing about someone booting you in the rear. I've been adding to hit the slam level when I should be overshooting and not letting it get below.
    '70s IG Vinyl 32K gal, Lazy L, Hayward SuperPump 1.5hp 120V, S240 Sand Filter W/DE
    Solar Blanket, Well Water, Borax Added, TF-100 tester. ? too cold
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    I'd say let her go to the pool store and spend all her $$ if that's what she wants to do. Then, in a month when she's out of $$ and the pool is still cloudy maybe she'll let you try it the TFP way?

    Problem with too many chiefs is...there's just no way to mix pool store methods with TFP methods.

    BTW you may already know this but if you're using anything but liquid chlorine you're raising something in addition to your FC. (Either CYA or CH either of which will just keep building up while your FC needs to continue to be replenished..)

    I hope she will come around but it sounds like she's bent on trusting the pool store "experts" even if it costs $$$ and doesn't give good results.
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    I am not a relationship counselor, just want to throw that out right away. Like Beens said, trying to mix TFP methods and pool store methods will end in a bunch of fail. The bottom line is that if the pool owner will not allow you to manage the pool via TFP methods then don't try. The pool store methods will probably clear most of it up eventually, maybe, possibly.

    Now my personal opinion that should not be interpreted as any type of relationship advice: if you have no say in how the pool is cared for, stop caring for the pool. That's all I have to say about that.
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    Ok, just a few points, those chlorine sticks your trying to use up are trichlor, they are adding FC and CYA to the pool, which means your CYA level is going up, and that means your required shock level is going up too. Also it is impossible to do an accurate overnight chlorine loss test without a FAS-DPD test, and the same is true of following the SLAM procedure since OTO and DPD test only read up to 10 ppm chlorine there is no way to confirm you are actually at your required shock level, not to mention the question of the accuracy of the pool store's CYA test to begin with.

    Ike

    p.s. let me give an analogy here, this is like someone giving you a recipe for great spaghetti sauce, you are then complaining about it not coming out right after you substitute baking soda for salt, and cook it at the wrong temperature for too long, because your girl friend does not want to buy salt but has plenty of baking soda, and no thermometer.
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    you could take several samples of water and either take to different pool stores or have friends take to "her" store and then compare all the different results and recomendations you get
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    Quote Originally Posted by aussieta View Post
    you could take several samples of water and either take to different pool stores or have friends take to "her" store and then compare all the different results and recommendations you get
    I'm pretty satisfied with her pool stores testing as I stated before. I don't see any need to run around testing one place against another plus I'm not in a major city where I have a lot of options. Testing wasn't my complaint, the lack of progress in seeing the bottom was. I just missed the whole point of slamming. I raised it to slam but didn't keep it there. Since I'm not here to keep testing as often as needed I need to go past the slam level so I don't drop below it or don't drop too far below it. Just wasn't paying enough attention to what I should have been doing. Took longer, more bleach but I'm seeing the screws in the deep end drain, all is good with the world (girlfriend is quiet).
    Now to defend you guys bashing pool stores mine did do a number on me with the CYA. It was around 40 and the pool was clearing up so I added 20OZ in a sock and the next day (yesterday) they said it was 100 !! So I figure someone, me or them goofed and today it was 56 so I'm good. But going from 40 to 100 the next day to 56 the next ?? Just because I use their testing doesn't mean I follow them blindly. If something swings too much I just do a minimum and wait to do another test. Next year I can tell her the cheesy test kit chemicals are expired and get a TF-100. There is a method to my madness.
    I'm just working within a framework that isn't optimum but it's worked in the past and I'm moving from expensive pool store support and their chemicals to a TFPC way of doing it that she (the OWNER ) doesn't believe in and I'd like to say why she doesn't but I have no clue. If I knew I'd know what to try and prove to her. I got ripped for the muriatic acid as she thinks I've destroyed the new liner ?? She thinks it's going to melt or fade.

    What it comes down to is what makes it nice and blue. If I can replace the pool store stuff with common chemicals and the water is clear and comfortable she's not going to care.
    She did buy a bottle of flocking and that stuff worked wonders to get me vision to the bottom of the pool. Nice to vacuum and see where you are going and what you're doing !!
    Between that and adding some DE to the filter it really pulls the junk out of the water.

    After all, it's just water and shouldn't cause that much stress.
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    I am glad things are shaping up for you, and as long as you know you are doing it the hard way, taking longer and wasting chemicals in place of being able to test as needed that is fine. We are all about knowing what you are doing when managing a pool, and you are well on your way to understanding that even if you are not yet in a position to implement it. As to the floculant, I am glad it worked for you this time, but you should be aware using that stuff can be a dice roll, particularly when mix with some other pool store magic potions, about half the time it helps speed up clearing, but it can often makes things a whole lot worse.

    Ike

    p.s. How do you plan on establishing an operating minimum FC level without knowing what your CYA level is?
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    I planned on testing it myself. I used to do adjustments on copper baths when I worked for a printed circuit company so I'm used to testing and dealing with acids, or at lest I was back then.
    I'm lazy and it's convenient to just run to the pool store but after my CYA 40-100-56 over three days, well I'm ready to start doing my own.

    Took my time, measured correctly, shook for 30 seconds and it just looks like water. I know that's not right. The bottle has a lot number and I sent an e mail to HTH.
    First reply was: Good afternoon, Mark. It would appear as you have a very old test kit. We recommend replacing your test kit every year.
    So I asked again if they could tell me how old, yup they can . . . 2007

    Now I have the reason to say we need a new test kit. My evil plan to save her money in the long run is slowly coming together.
    She's already agreed we need to buy a new kit but she just wants to get a cheesy one. She's not understanding the limitations ... So we're getting a good one !!

    Soooooooo TF-100 or K-2006 ??
    '70s IG Vinyl 32K gal, Lazy L, Hayward SuperPump 1.5hp 120V, S240 Sand Filter W/DE
    Solar Blanket, Well Water, Borax Added, TF-100 tester. ? too cold
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    They're both good, but I would go TF-100 if you're in the USA (which you are), K-2006 if you're outside (where Taylor has distribution but TFT does not).

    I live in the Great White North so have a 2006.
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    I am going to borrow an example I wrote on another message board a couple of days ago for a technically minded reader regarding the difference between the K-2006 and TF-100, you can tell by my signature which one I prefer:

    The TF-100 uses all Taylor brand reagents, it is very similar to the K-2006, but I think lacks the seldom needed acid demand test. The key difference is the TF-100 gives you larger bottles of the reagents you use the most, not matching size bottles for all.

    Lets take the FAS-DPD chlorine drop test as an example:

    On both test kits you can measure in .5 ppm increments using a 10 ml sample (this is in the extended instructions for the K-2006 where the standard instructions show using a 25 ml sample and .2 ppm increments, which tends to waste reagent and is higher resolution than usually needed)

    This test involves using a small "scoop" of R-0870 powder, then drop counting R-0871 with each drop counting for .5 ppm of chlorine, in this case FC, then adding 5 drops of R-0003 for the CC part of the test, then more R-0871 with each drop counting for .5 ppm of CC this time.

    On the K-2006 you have the same size 22 ml bottle for R-0871 and for R-0003, on the standard TF-100 you get a 22ml bottle of R-0003 and a 60 ml bottle of R-0871

    Ike

    p.s. from a consumer shelf display box point of view all those matching size bottles in the K-2006 probablys looks neater, but is really less practical
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    I love my Taylor 2006 Comercial kit but it is suited for my application. Typically can spend 5 min per day and know exactly what I am dealing with and react immediately. Truly the best $70 I've ever spent and my clients are happy and safe. Find a test kit that fits for you; and you will never look back. BTW the speed stir has made it faster and more reliable in my opinion.
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    Re: Ok,, I'm at the point of tossing in anything that might help

    TF100 it is. Thanks for the input. Next project is to add borax !!
    '70s IG Vinyl 32K gal, Lazy L, Hayward SuperPump 1.5hp 120V, S240 Sand Filter W/DE
    Solar Blanket, Well Water, Borax Added, TF-100 tester. ? too cold
    1979, 275gal Conway Emerald Spa P-100-2, ES-2 Spa Pack, bromine floater, indoor
    TF-100, Best test kit - TFTestkits.net
    Please help keep the lights on, become a TFP Supporter!

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