Do you know how to troubleshoot low pressure at the 9-port Paramount water valves?

[rock]

Do you know how to troubleshoot low pressure at the 9-port water valves of a Paramount self-cleaning popup system?

The 15 popups used to work just fine, in that a handful of Paramount popups popped up, rotated about 1/16 of a circle, shot water for a few minutes, and then popped down, awaiting the next cycle about 15 minutes later. Meanwhile the next handful of popups went through the cycle, and the two permanent pop ups fed the deep end catch basin where the main filter drain lies.

But, now, the pop ups are barely popping up, due to, for some reason, I think, low hydraulic pressure.
Up on the deck, there's used to be something like 25 psi on the first water valve, and the second water valve had fluctuated half the time from 0 psi to something like 20 psi the other half the time.

But now both on-deck water valve gauges read zero psi even after I replaced one gauge and swapped them - so I know the gauges are telling the truth.
Therefore, I know I have low pressure at the water valves - which explains the low pressure at the popups - but how do I debug low pressure at the water valves?

Back below deck about 8 feet below the pool at the cleaner pump, water is sucked in from the skimmers into the cleaner pump, and then pushed to the water valves, which regulates which handful of popups are activated in sequence. All the Jandy valves to the cleaner pump are working, as I've disassembled them all (after repairing some unrelated leaks in the plumbing).

I've disassembled the cleaner pump itself, to replace the seal, so I know the cleaning pump impeller is just fine.
If I leave an inlet side valve open to the cleaner pump, water pours through without obstruction (all three pumps are 8 feet below the pool); and the cleaner pump basket is clear of debris, as is the inlet to the impeller. (Note that the cleaner pump water flow is from the skimmers, to the cleaner pump to the water valves to the popups, so there is no filter involved and no valves other than what is visible at the pump equipment for inlet and outflow to and from the cleaner pump.)

Back at the pool, no popup head was ever moved to a different location than original, and, they are all are in their holes and sized properly (since the system used to work just fine).
After draining the pool a few wekes ago, I removed all the popup heads, snaked, and cleaned out all debris (there really wasn't anything to speak of), and tested manual spinning operation of each popup in air.

Opening each of the two on-deck 9-port cleaner heads, I don't see any stuck pistons, nor obvious debris or broken plastic gears - but these things are complicated inside.
Any other suggestions on how to debug why there is low pressure at the measuring gauge on each water valve?

Note: There is no vacuum in this pool. The filter system is separate from the cleaner system. The filter system filters out suspended and settled particles and debris and the cleaner system stirs the pool so that the filter system can suck in all the suspended and settled particles and debris.

 

[mas985]

What is the current filter pressure and what is the normal filter pressure?

Is there any valve that can redirect water past the cleaner to a waterfall or regular return?

If the pump is on, the water would be going somewhere unless there is total blockage but then the filter pressure would be very high (30+ PSI).

 

[rock]

What is the current filter pressure and what is the normal filter pressure?

What's termed the "cleaning system" on the control box is wholly separate from what is termed the "filter system", each of which has entirely separate intakes, pumps, plumbing, outflows, and associated valves.
So, the filter system is wholly separate from the cleaning system.

But, to answer the question ... the pressure from the filter pump as measured at the top of the filter is about 21-22 psi which is normal (I just recently drained the pool and cleaned the cartridges).
But, as stated in the OP, the filtering system has its own pump and plumbing, which is separate from the pop-up cleaning system.

For the filter system, water flows from the floor and wall drains to the filter pump to the filter and back to the pool via the return ports in the walls.
For the cleaning system, water flows from the skimmers (and one wall drain) to the cleaner pump to the 9-port water valves on the deck and then to the 15 rotating pop-up heads on the bottom of the pool.

My pressure problem is in the cleaning system, not the filtering system.

Is there any valve that can redirect water past the cleaner to a waterfall or regular return?

There's nothing that can be redirected, as the only manual valves are those at the inlet and outlet of the cleaner pump itself.

The cleaning system has the following components (in this order of flow):
a) Two skimmers & one wall port
b) Two inlet Jandy valves (one for each skimmer)
c) Pump & motor
d) One outlet Jandy valve
e) Two on-deck water valves (we call them the two space ships)
e) Fifteen pool-floor pop-up jets (there is no vacuum)

If the pump is on, the water would be going somewhere unless there is total blockage but then the filter pressure would be very high (30+ PSI).

The filter has nothing to do with the pop up valves on the floor of the pool.

The purpose of the filtering system is to clean the stuff suspended in the water and the stuff which gets trapped at the deep end of the pool.
The purpose of the cleaning system is to stir the pool water such that everything is eventually moved to deep end of the pool where it gets trapped.

There is no vacuum in this system.

 

[mmcgovern]

My first thoughts are 1) a clog restricting the flow to the water valve or 2) a pump problem that's causing it to slow down/restrict flow.
Does your system have a strainer just above the water valve? It catches dirt before it gets to the water valve. If it's full, that would cause your problem. If you have them they are at the top of your "spaceship(s)".

 

[JasonLion]

Presumably there is either: a blockage somewhere on the suction side of the pump, or a problem with the pump it's self, or a leak on the pressure side allowing water to go somewhere other than the in-floor system. That doesn't really narrow it down, but it should help you focus on what needs to be checked.

A pressure side leak large enough to cause the pressure drop will be fairly obvious, at least if it is above ground.

Given you just looked at the pump, I would investigate any possible blockages on the suction port and suction plumbing.

 

[rock]

My first thoughts are 1) a clog restricting the flow to the water valve

I don't know how to tell if there is a clog in the outflow from the pump, but, if I shut all the valves before and after the cleaner pump, and if I then open the cleaner pump basket, and then I open the OUTPUT Jandy valve to the outflow (which goes first to the spaceships 8 feet above, on the pool deck, and then to the pop-up valves in the bottom of the pool), water does pour out of the pump basket.

That's the only clog test I know of, which shows that plenty of water can flow backward from the space ships to the cleaner pump 8 feet below them.

or 2) a pump problem that's causing it to slow down/restrict flow.

I guess I could have a pump problem. But, how would I test that, given that the impeller is good and the flow into the pump basket is good - but - that I have no way (yet) of knowing what the pump is putting out, by way of pressure, other than the gauge at the next stop above ground, which is at the space ships.

Does your system have a strainer just above the water valve? It catches dirt before it gets to the water valve. If it's full, that would cause your problem. If you have them they are at the top of your "spaceship(s)".

There is no obvious strainer valve above the space ships, but, there is something that sticks up. I'll snap a photo of it in the daylight and add it to this thread tomorrow, if that helps.

Presumably there is either: a blockage somewhere on the suction side of the pump, or a problem with the pump it's self, or a leak on the pressure side allowing water to go somewhere other than the in-floor system. That doesn't really narrow it down, but it should help you focus on what needs to be checked.

I am leaning toward something being wrong at the spaceships because I can't "see" anything wrong at the pump itself.
(a) If I close inlet and outlet valves surrounding the cleaner pump, and then pull the cleaner pump basket cover off, and then open just the inlet valves, water pours out the cleaner pump basket.
(b) Water pours out if I repeat that experiment, only with the outlet valves open instead.
(c) I don't know how to test pump output though ...

A pressure side leak large enough to cause the pressure drop will be fairly obvious, at least if it is above ground.

Certainly there is nearly zero pressure at the spaceships (I'll snap a picture in the daylight tomorrow to show exactly what pressure is at the spaceship).

Assuming the pump develops at least 20PSI, that pressure has to be going somewhere, but I don't know how to tell if it's being lost BEFORE it gets to the space ships or if the pressure is lost INSIDE the space ships (as it's dissipated in the pool).

 

[mmcgovern]

If this were my problem I would detach the "spaceship"/water valve and turn on the pump and watch the water come through the pipes to where the spaceship was.

If there's zero pressure coming in to the spaceship, water will trickle in and you have a clogged pipe. If the problem is the spaceship, you'll get a geyser of water and your problem is in the spaceship.

I'm not saying that's the best or only idea....it's what I would do if I had this problem.