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Thread: Pump Size

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    Pump Size

    I have a 22 x 52 pool. I just set it up. So for now I am using the pump that came with it. However I have installed a bottom drain in the center of the pool and sidewall skimmer on it and capped them both in preparation for a pump/filter upgrade. I was given a hayward t220 filter (52GPM recommended), and I'm looking for a pump to fit it. I've been looking on Amazon to see what similar filters are paired with and all of them that size are coming with a 1.5hp matrix pump sp1593 . According to my calculations that pump is way to big for that filter am I correct. By my calculations I can get a sp1591 and it will still be to big for that filter with my head pressure. My bottom drain is 30 ft from my pump location and my skimmer is 28 ft. So based on my pool holding about 10,500 gallons and my head pressure being about 27 and I plan on turning over my pool once every four hrs I calculate I need something smaller than a sp1591. Am I wrong or missing something here? What size pump should I use with this setup? I was also looking to get a two speed matrix pump, to run on low primarily and on high when vacuuming and etc. I have a lot of tree in my yard as well as a lot of birds if that makes a difference.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pump Size

    Welcome to TFP!

    Your best bet is a 1 HP two speed pump. Then you can run it on low speed (1/8 HP) most of the time and still have high speed available if you should happen to need it. A 3/4 HP two speed would also be fine, but they are nearly impossible to find.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Pump Size

    Thanks any particular pump in mind?

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    Re: Pump Size

    Both the SP1593 and SP1592 should be below 53 GPM for typical AG plumbing. Head loss will be closer to 50' than 27'. Where did you get 27'?

    The Matrix comes in a two speed as well:

    http://www.amazon.com/Hayward-SP1592.../dp/B00212NNU4
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump Size

    30+28=58
    58/2= 29

    Divided by two for the number returns. Is that incorrect?
    http://www.inyopools.com/HowToPage/h...und_pool_.aspx
    Step 7

    I can't seem to find a flow chart for the 2 speed pumps to determine if the low setting will be sufficient to cycle the pool fast enough.
    At 50' the 93 will only flow 32gpm on high which will only give me a turn over every 5.4 hrs. 1 turnover every 6 is minimum correct? Which means on low the pump would nowhere near keep up.
    Go bigger a super pump maybe?

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Pump Size

    Head loss does not equal pipe length if that was what you were thinking. It is realated to the pipe length but head loss is the friction loss within the pipe and is calculated from the smoothness of the pipe, length of pipe, diameter of pipe and the flow rate going through the pipe so it is not an easy calculation. What they are explaining on the web page is NOT correct.

    Low speed flow rate is always 1/2 of high speed, so if high speed is 50 GPM, then low speed will be 25 GPM. But flow rate really has little to do with the pump run time if that is where you are headed. You might want to read this article:

    http://www.troublefreepool.com/conte...-pump-run-time
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
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    Re: Pump Size

    Ok so I was planning on running the pump 24/7. But based on that article I won't need too. I'll prolly cut it down to 12hrs on low, which is more energy savings. Cool. However I still need to size my pump to my filter, and a 93 on high will only do 32gpms at 50' which is ideal it will turn my pool over 2 times in the 12 hr period. But on low it will do 16gpm which in 12hr is 12,500 gallons, which doesn't seem ideal I have several trees and a lot of birds. And if it can't keep the pool clean on low I will have to run it on high which defeats the purpose of spending the extra money on the two speed. Which brings me too finding a 230v pump that way on high it will pull only slightly more amps than a 115v on low. Any advice on this? Or should I stick with the 93 two speed and see how it functions once it's on the pool? If it doesn't function properly I can always sell it and try something different.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pump Size

    Just forget everything you know about turnovers. The turnover rate is not important in a residential pool.

    Low speed keeps the pool cleaner than high speed. I am mystified why you would think otherwise.

    Even 12 hours of run time is way too much for most residential pools, simply wasting electricity.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Pump Size

    Ok forget turn over.

    Low vs high is based on particle dilution, low will only pump x gpms through the filter, therefore in x hrs x gallons will be filtered. VS on high the pump will pump double the gallons through the filter therefore doubling the amount of water that has been filtered. Based on that we all know just because I have pumped 10,500 gallons of water out of my pool through the filter and back into the pool does not mean it was all different water, that's where dilution comes into play. The more you filter the water the fewer dirt or etc particles are in the water because it dilutes itself throughout the pool. The more you filter the cleaner it gets.
    Is that principle of thinking wrong?

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    Re: Pump Size

    Believe it or not keeping your pool clean is not really about filtering the water. It is a somewhat of a myth that you must turnover your pool to filter ALL of the water. Nearly all of the debris in a pool will either float or sink. Very little gets suspended in the water. So a filter's main purpose is not to filter every ounce of water but to trap debris when skimming (floaties) and/or using a pool cleaner (sinkers). So our recommendation is to run the pump for as long as necessary but NOT to filter a specific amount of water in a specific amount of time. Doing that just wastes energy.

    You might want to read this study done some time ago. Their conclusion is that is most pools can be kept clean with as little as 3-4 hours of run time per day. I run my pump about 4 hours per day and 2-3 hours of that is on low speed which turns out to be less than a 1/2 turn per day. Some pool owners here on the forum have gone to 30 min per day and still keep their pools clean.

    http://consensus.fsu.edu/FBC/Pool-Ef...on_systems.pdf
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
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    Re: Pump Size

    Another thing that will help keep you pool nice and sparkly clean is maintaing proper water chemistry. You can have the biggest, baddest filter money can buy, if your water chemistry is not maintained your not going to have clean sparkly water. 😎
    Jeff
    24'x54" AG Morada RTR (by wilbar) 13'500 gal. Hayward Powerflo Matrix 1hp 2 speed. Hayward Perflex EC65 DE filter.

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    Re: Pump Size

    Now that's a good read and goes completely against everything I have ever been told about a pool. Based on the study (pg 16) I am using 1.5" pipe. So I should find a .75 hp motor. I just have to make sure it can the backwash flow needed to clean the filter properly. Yeah 1984 I'd say that was a few years ago. Lol but that being said pumps have gotten even more efficient at flowing water since then so it would be interesting if they did the same study on today's pumps if they would decrease it to .5 HP because of the increased efficiency. So here is my next question. If I take the flow rate of a .75 hp motor and factor in its energy consumption, then find a 1hp 2spd and find its flow rate and energy consumption on low will it equal be more efficient or be the exact opposite. Time to hit the books again. Is that why you told me a 1hp pump should be plenty, and then mas985 also reference a 2spd 1hp motor earlier as well?
    Last edited by RobbieBott; 05-25-2014 at 08:33 PM. Reason: Corrected spelling

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Pump Size

    Getting a two speed is important. A 3/4 HP two speed would probably be fine, but 3/4 HP two speed aren't generally available. Having two speeds allows you to run on low speed for great energy efficiency, and still have high speed available when you need it for priming, manual vacuuming, backwashing, etc.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Pump Size

    I have 2" plumbing and I still went with a 1/2 HP pump (IG). There is no reason for a large pump on any pool unless you have some sort of water feature (e.g. waterfall, spa, jets, etc). So as a general rule of thumb, go with the smallest two speed you can find. The smaller the pump, the more energy efficient it will be. However for AG pool pumps, it is pretty hard to find a two speed smaller than about 1 HP.

    Also, you can't always judge a pump's "size" by the label HP. It is only loosely associated with the flow rate of the pump. You can see what I mean from the chart of pump flow rate in this sticky: http://www.troublefreepool.com/threa...ull=1#post6230
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
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    Re: Pump Size

    So I'm looking at taking it a step further, it see y'all like pentair whisper flo but they are a bit exuberant on cost and from what I can tell they flow to much water for my filter. How well do you think a hayward super pump sp2607x102S would work. I am trying to go 230v 2speed. Even more energy savings. If I could find a 3/4 no 230v 2 speed I would get that one. Not having any luck I can find 120v 2 speed 3/4 hp. But they draw more amps than the 1hp 230v.

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    Pump Size

    Keep in mind that 1a 230v is the same as 2a 120v (115 nominal). It's just 1 hot leg vs 2 hot legs.

    You may see a very very slight loss at 115 vs 230.

    Watts = amps * volts

    Hope this helps with your calculations

    Chris
    TFP Moderator Chris V. ~16K Pool & Spa, 48NSF DE, IG Plaster Circa 2000, Intermatic PE653, Challenger pump with a 2 speed B2984, 20gal stenner chlorine injection, Houston, TX
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    Re: Pump Size

    RobbieBott

    Both the Superpump and especially the Whisperflo are larger more powerful pumps so will use more energy per gallon of water pumped. The Matrix SP1592 is more energy efficient. Again, I think you are focusing too much on label HP. Also, label amps are motor ratings not actual power usage.

    If you want a smaller pump than the Matrix, then I would go with the 2 speed Dynamo:

    http://www.amazon.com/Pentair-340203...eywords=Dynamo

    That is also a good pump but a little smaller than the Matrix.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Pump Size

    How good are these?
    http://www.zodiacpoolsystems.com/Pro...ps/FloPro.aspx

    They have a 3/4 HP 230V that falls in the same flow rates as the Hayward Matrix 1HP, (so same flow less amps seems better right??)
    Their two speeds also follow the Hayward Matrix as well as well but the motors seem to be of a better quality and they are 230V??
    It seems to me this is in between the Matrix and the Super pump/Whisperflo??? More efficient than the matrix but not quite the flow of the whisperflo.
    Anyone have experience with these? Are they any good? Motors seem to be permanent magnet, and seem to be rated at full rated.

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    Re: Pump Size

    Based on your comments I think you may have missed these points:

    The Matrix comes in a two speed version (SP15922S). This pump is going to be more efficient than any of the other pumps you have mentioned (Whisperflo, SuperPump, FloPro) as measured by gallons pumped per watt-h used.

    Again, the motor label HP and AMPS are maximum ratings NOT operating points so you cannot use that to compare pump efficiency.

    All standard motors are induction, not permanent magnet. Only variable speed motors/pumps use a ECM permanent magnet motor.

    You seem to be drawn to IG pumps rather than AG pumps. If you have an AG pool, you don't really need an IG pump and they tend to be more expensive and less efficient as well than an AG pump.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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