This is why you bond your pool and equipment!
- Thread starter JohnT
- Start date
What if I'm building an inground gunite about 2 feet from an existing patio? Do I need to get into that concrete and tie the bond into that rebar?
They make clamps that bolts the bare bond wire to the rebar. Any one in the electrical depts of the home improvement stores will know what u need. Your inspector should also.
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Not in my local ones. I was in the orange store the other day and saw an orange vest advise a person that regular romex would be fine underground in conduit.
This should be a better source for the info you need.
my electrician came out today to give me a bid on running power to our pool that is being built. He recommended #6 wire ran around the pool connected to all 8 of the metal supports for our pool and specifically said #8, while NEC code, is in his opinion not big enough. He said if the other supports were metal and not resin he would connect them all, not just at 4 points like I originally planned. Then a run to the lug on the pump, a water bond through the skimmer, and all tied to a ground rod driven 3 feet in near the pump station. He said bonding the rebar in the slab is not necessary on an AGP, even if buried, nor is it required by NEC. He stated that by the NEC, concrete / gunite ingrounds must have the concrete deck bonded as well due to the rebar in the pool itself and the fact that the pool deck and inground pool itself are often connected and are essentially one piece.
With a vinyl liner pool, it is not necessary unless there is rebared concrete under the liner or there is a metal or otherwise conductive ladder or step attached to both the pool and concrete deck combining the two. With our AGP we have no such conductive ladder or step. Ours is resin. He has been a licensed electrician for over 30 years and is recommended by our city code enforcement. I have used him on several other jobs and I trust his knowledge of his field. He also does many pools.
whats nice is since im a repeat customer of his, he gave me the wire, lugs and ground rod. all i need is the waterbug for the skimmer and he told me that I could easily do the install myself after my PB gets the pool done this weekend and that when he comes out next week to run our electric he will inspect it and correct any mistakes I made at no charge.
With a vinyl liner pool, it is not necessary unless there is rebared concrete under the liner or there is a metal or otherwise conductive ladder or step attached to both the pool and concrete deck combining the two. With our AGP we have no such conductive ladder or step. Ours is resin. He has been a licensed electrician for over 30 years and is recommended by our city code enforcement. I have used him on several other jobs and I trust his knowledge of his field. He also does many pools.
whats nice is since im a repeat customer of his, he gave me the wire, lugs and ground rod. all i need is the waterbug for the skimmer and he told me that I could easily do the install myself after my PB gets the pool done this weekend and that when he comes out next week to run our electric he will inspect it and correct any mistakes I made at no charge.
My IG fiberglass pool w concrete reinforced deck by my city cpde required bonding and inspection prior to pouring. It all depends where u live
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we never talked about fiberglass. my city code only requires a GFCI outlet for AGPs and I dont have to pull permit for one either, even a buried one. Our code enforcement officer told me that I had to have a GFCI outlet for pump and any sidewall of the pool below 35 inches high had to have a pool fence of at least 35 inches of barrier height. Thats all the codes we have on AGPs.
my electrician said that even though our local codes dont address it, NEC codes are national and cities are supposed to enforce them, but he admitted rarely do they. what he quoted me was the NEC codes. but you are correct, it depends on where you live. i will do my pool per NEC codes.
NEC codes are written to to be a uniform national electrical standard by the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) but unless they're legally adopted by a government agency; local, state or federal, they have no force of law and therefor there's no ability for cities to enforce that which they haven't adopted. Fortunately, they have been widely adopted, but I'm sure there are many exceptions.
I'm sure he knows what will be approved by the local inspector, but that is not the same as what the code actually says. The code clearly states that permitter surfaces within 3' of the pool must be bonded, regardless of pool type or construction. That is doubly true if they contain rebar, since a separate provision requires that all metal parts over 4" within 5' of the water must be bonded. So he is just dead wrong about that part, even if he knows how to get the local inspector to pass it. And completely apart from what the code says, unbounded concrete close to the water is just plain dangerous, as concrete conducts fairly well (it's not metal, but way more conductive than most dirt) and people are known to get shocks that way, as mentioned above.
there is no local inspection on my pool, so I dont think its about what will pass inspection. i dont even have to have a permit. im sure he would bond the concrete if asked him too, but he said it isnt necessary. my deck may not contain rebar either... got to get with my concrete guy about that.
i have a concrete seating area near my pond, within 3 feet. is that dangerous too since its near water?
Yes, certainly dangerous. You can get a deadly shock from the concrete while touching both the concrete and the water unless the concrete is bonded. That is not to say that you will, but you could. And while deadly shocks are very very rare, annoying shocks are fairly common.
Except in a circumstance like yours where there is a known problem, pieces of concrete not associated with a spa or pool wouldn't be bonded, i.e. sidewalks, concrete benches. But if you have known problem in your area then it might not be a bad idea.
crazy. where does all this stray voltage come from...
Many sources. Problems with the utility power distribution system, phone lines, bad well pumps, bad grounding practices, or any situation where current flows through the soil.
Most of the time, people aren't aware they have problems unless they have an improperly installed pool.
crazy. where does all this stray voltage come from...
Everything in the universe has a specific electrical potential and can develop and hold a charge. Most objects we come in contact with on a daily basis do not have a large enough potential differential to feel a voltage transfer. Larger bodies such as a pool of water, the metal framing of the pool and the concrete deck can develop and hold a larger potential difference.
Maybe this might help understand it a little better.... Lets assume we have a 120 volt line suspended in mid air and a parallel return line back to the voltage source. (black and white wires in a romex sheath connected to a panel box). Everybody assumes that that line has 120 volts of electricity on it. It does, and it does not. Until the 120 volt feed (black wire) is connected to a 0 volt reference source (white wire) the line has no voltage on it. The black wire is said to have 120 volts of potential. If it were connected to an opposite phase 120 volt source, it would read 240 volts
If we apply this to a pool the same physics are in play. Lest assume that the pool water is completely isolated from any bonding. It will be, for simplifying this, at one voltage potential. Lets say for arguments sake it is at 5 volts of voltage potential. Now we have a concrete pad near the deck. Again isolated such as the pool water is. Lets assume this pad is at 3 volts of potential. Now lets take a resistive device (volt/OHM meter) and place it between the two voltage potentials. We will read a voltage of 2 volts. Now lets take another resistive device (you) and place it between the two voltage potentials. You feel a shock. Now, lets put a non resistive device ( Bonding ) between the two potentials. Since the non resistive device (short circuit) won't hold back any voltage between the two potentials, they are evened out. Without the bond, you can be swimming in the pool at 5 volts potential and not have a problem (bird on a wire) You can also be standing on the deck at 3 volts potential and not have a problem. Combine the two and the voltage will want to flow to even out (squirrel on a wire bridging the insulator)
Now im baffled on all this.
My pool was bonded as follows.
1. #8 bare copper continuously around the pool about 15" out.
2. #8 bare copper attached to metal panel with copper connector 4 places on each side spaced equally and 2 on each end.
3. Wire attached to pool walls connects to the continuous loop.
4. Metal ladder is in brass cups (I think brass or copper, dont remember which). Cups are attached to bond loop and set in concrete.
5. Light niche outside connection attached to bond loop.
6. dry box above ground where light connects attached to bond loop.
7. Bond loop attached to pump and I think control panel box on outside.
8. Bond loop attached to zinc anode.
Bond is NOT attached to any rebar. I have no rebar in the concrete. I have a very thin layer of concrete with pavers overtop. Inspector had no issue with this. Is it because the ladder is in brass cups and the brass cups are attached to the bond loop? Inspector was quite happy I used the metal cups rather than the plastic.
My pool was bonded as follows.
1. #8 bare copper continuously around the pool about 15" out.
2. #8 bare copper attached to metal panel with copper connector 4 places on each side spaced equally and 2 on each end.
3. Wire attached to pool walls connects to the continuous loop.
4. Metal ladder is in brass cups (I think brass or copper, dont remember which). Cups are attached to bond loop and set in concrete.
5. Light niche outside connection attached to bond loop.
6. dry box above ground where light connects attached to bond loop.
7. Bond loop attached to pump and I think control panel box on outside.
8. Bond loop attached to zinc anode.
Bond is NOT attached to any rebar. I have no rebar in the concrete. I have a very thin layer of concrete with pavers overtop. Inspector had no issue with this. Is it because the ladder is in brass cups and the brass cups are attached to the bond loop? Inspector was quite happy I used the metal cups rather than the plastic.
Pavers are a neglected area in the code. They are actually a conductive material (when wet) that can't be practically bonded. The solution in more recent versions of the code is a copper mesh under the pavers.
I don't think it is possible to be code compliant with concrete around a pool that doesn't have rebar or a conductive grid embedded and connected to the bonding system.
Inspectors and electricians often lack understanding of the requirements.
Just spoke with an inspector.
I have a steel wall/vinyl pool. Walls are all bonded, bond wire is under concrete. Concrete is against the metal walls. The "bonding grid" requirement was met with the bonding of the steel walls. Poly walls require the concrete grid bonding. The ladder (and anode) provides the water bond.
The key, per him, is the bonding grid, which was accomplished with the steel walls.
I actually have a copy of the requirements, the "grid" states it can be steel walls, rebar grid, wire mesh.
I have a steel wall/vinyl pool. Walls are all bonded, bond wire is under concrete. Concrete is against the metal walls. The "bonding grid" requirement was met with the bonding of the steel walls. Poly walls require the concrete grid bonding. The ladder (and anode) provides the water bond.
The key, per him, is the bonding grid, which was accomplished with the steel walls.
I actually have a copy of the requirements, the "grid" states it can be steel walls, rebar grid, wire mesh.
i still dont know if we will have rebar in our concrete deck when its poured or not. if not, I dont see why a big loop of #6 wire laid down on top of some wooden stakes to where it is suspended in the middle of the concrete connected at 2 points to the pool bonding grid wont accomplish the same thing. i can do that just before they pour it.