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Thread: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

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    Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    My conversion was due to a failure of Baqu product to stop a white mold bead (silicone caulk like mostly) from growing.
    (Baq pool levels were always ON and pool was always clear).

    Pool opened from winter 3 1/2 weeks ago. Started conversion with new pool store but now I am taking over. (I am not going to add Trichlor or DiChlor)
    I am in 2 week battle of attempting to Slam my pool. Pool is crystal clear and has been for almost 2 1/2 weeks.
    After many trips to the store to check my "test strips" to their machine I realized I've got to do something. Hence
    the BBB convert, with the TF-100 Test Kit.

    All seems to be going well but I cannot keep a FC level in daylight almost like I don't have any CYA.
    Could the CYA be bound up by some other chemical that is stopping it from binding with chlorine?

    When I started the first SLAM I had a CC of 1.0

    I Started a second second Slam this past Friday, Sat, Sun and was really on top of it I thought. But boy again I was using a lot of 12% Chlorine. 48 gallons.
    But come Monday AM and level was good but when I checked a 11 am FC was 1.0 Had to go out of town. Son added 10 Gallons Monday thru Tues

    Slam not complete as OCLT not achieved
    Pool Clear
    CC = 0.0


    My CC is now 0.0
    My CYA this morning was 50
    Water Temp 65


    Example of what I was working with before I started the second slam

    FC 1.0
    CC 0.5
    pH 7.2
    TA 130
    CH 325
    CYA 50


    Back this AM
    At 5:30 full shade FC 24, CC 0.0
    At 7:30 80% shade FC 9, CC 0.0
    At 10:30 full sun FC 2.5 CC 0.0


    I realize that I should be adding more but I wanted to see what the Sunlight maybe doing, because this is what I am experiencing.
    At night I am not loosing 15ppm in two hours.

    Any Ideas... I am ready to start SLAM from tonight Wed thru Labor Day weekend.




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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    Your water will NOT have any CYA in it, unless you have added it. Have you added CYA to the water during the conversion.......What have you used to chlorinate during the conversion?

    Welcome to TFP!

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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    During the first few days of opening I added Cyanuric Acid from the product stabilizer 100 after the PH was balanced. (Prior to me getting the TF-100 test kit) so I was just following the advice of the pool store. The 50 range has been pretty consistent from their testing and from mine with the TF-100.

    I have been using liquid 12% Sodium Hypochlorite as my chlorine from pool store and or Fleet Farm. (After reading many threads I realize the danger of using a "stabilized" chlorine stick of Trichlor or bag of DiChlor for convenience sake as it will continue to add CYA. I have not used either of those this year and do not plan to).
    20,000 gal, 18 x 36 IG Vinyl, 1.5 HP Hayward 2610x152S two speed, Sta-Rite S870 sand filter, Raypak 265,000 BTU P-R26A-EP-C, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    I'm a little confused. Did you do a baqua conversion some time ago, last week, or are you just doing the conversion now?

    Also, what is your overnight chlorine loss?

    Day time chlorine loss isn't a very interesting number. It can give you a few hints, but it includes sunlight loss as well as loss from whatever contaminates you are dealing with, so it is difficult to decode what is sunlight and what isn't.
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    Decided to do baqua conversion this year. I wanted to do the conversion Right as pool opened.

    Assumed that the baqua level would be at its lowest right after winter. I was following instructions of a different pool store company than last 4 years company. At opening added liquid shock. Pool was mostly clear turned clear green then cloudy green. When ran pump on circulate only. When gunk settled to bottom of the pool I vacuumed to waste. Then after multiple trips and tests at this years pool store I had decided that I have to do more. I then decided I am going to follow this forums advice. Thats when I got the tf-100 and began to Attempt to SLAM. Just 2 1/2 weeks ago. Attempted to SLAM and was not diligent enough in those attempts

    Through the process I've been going a little bonkers.
    Night time loss has been 1 to 2 ppm. I thought it was 0 one night but I don't know anymore and decided I'd run another day of test then next night it wasn't. I realize I must keep much better notes. I have stated my notebook log.
    20,000 gal, 18 x 36 IG Vinyl, 1.5 HP Hayward 2610x152S two speed, Sta-Rite S870 sand filter, Raypak 265,000 BTU P-R26A-EP-C, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    Alright, that makes a lot more sense now. With an over night loss in the 0-3 range and CC below 1.0 you are right near the very end of the conversion.

    When you do the CYA test, the black dot should vanish completely, as if it was never there, even when you stare at it for a couple of seconds. Also, you can fill the view tube several times with the same water sample reagent mixture, just pour it back into the dispensing bottle after doing a reading. You can do this for four or five minutes after the first viewing to confirm that you get repeatable results and are doing the test correctly.
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    Thanks for your response(s).
    It has been a week and I have more results. (I must have been sloppy in my records).

    I hope I am clearer this time with my explanation. (Since its been a week I thought I’d Recap … I changed from Baquacil to chlorine right from pool opening this year 1 month ago as I have battled a white caulk like “mold” substance for last two seasons of my 4 on baquacil. I went through the initial color change, precipitate, vacuum to waste, sand change etc. All went pretty much as expected. At that time I probably added too much CYA before I was a follower of this site). What I thought would happen is after/during Shock – SLAM that I would see some FC level during daylight hours but I did not think it would go to 0.

    …I had been attempting a SLAM prior to Wed 5/21/14 but figured I was not diligent enough. … Pool was/is crystal clear, CC=<0.5 but I never got OCLT <=1.

    As Jason pointed out I must get an OCLT to 1 or 0. (Thank you for the encouragement and the tip on the CYA testing)
    So I decided I would attempt it again, and this time I would more meticulous.

    On Wed 5/21/14 I started my current and ongoing SLAM. I fully tested the water and noticed the pH was Low 7.0 (I thought that is odd, as 1 week earlier when I began the “non diligent” attempt of slamming the pH too was low also. I had adjusted it up to 7.2 before starting that “non-diligent” slam.). I added Borax according to pool math and brought it up to 7.2
    Beginning Numbers Wed afternoon 5/21/14 (Full Sun)
    FC .5
    CC .5
    pH 7.2
    CYA 50/55
    CH 325
    TH 140

    I did a lot more reading on TFP site and a lot better record keeping. On average 6-7 tests during the day with Precision tests in AM and PM before and after the sun rise and set. At first I added chlorine during the day but soon realized I must add the majority late afternoon early evening.
    With my CYA at 50/55 range my Shock target is/was 22/24 at Sunset. All evening test were after the sun went down and 1 hour after last chlorine added.

    (edited after posting)

    Day Date Gal Used that Day FC (AM ) CC (AM) OCLT (AM result)
    (12% Sodium Hypochlorite)
    Wed 05/21/2014 16 ? ? --
    Thurs 05/22/2014 10 18 0.5 8
    Fri 05/23/2014 13 21.5 0.5 4
    Sat 05/24/2014 16 19 1 5
    Sun 05/25/2014 11 23 0.5 5
    Mon 05/26/2014 10 18 0.5 9
    Tues 05/27/2014 16 19 1 7
    Wed 05/28/2014 11 30 1 1
    Thurs 05/29/2014 Not completed yet 31 0.5 1


    (I have all Chlorine reading and times through out the day logged but not posted here too much data).

    So On wed 5/28/14 (yesterday) I was very happy that it looks like I finally broke through the “OCLT” barrier and was expecting the daytime FC to stabilize at around 5-7 with CYA of 50/55. It did not.
    Wed 5/28/14 5:15 am FC 30
    Wed 5/28/14 10 am FC 2 Full Sun on the pool by 7am. (Similar results on the other days also).
    Wed 5/28/14 12 noon FC 0 or .5

    So I figure well that’s the first day I need to get several nights of a successful OCLT results. Since the FC is so low this would be a good time to fully check the numbers again.
    FC .5
    CC .5
    pH 7.0 *** Then adjusted to 7.2 before beginning afternoon Chlorine addition
    CYA 55
    CH 325
    TH 160


    On Thursday 5/28/14 I get my second OCLT of 1 so I figure …. Great!!! But by 9:30 am a tremendous drop off. I don’t get it. (Would this be normal? I would think not)

    Thursday 5/29/14 5:30 am FC 30 & CC=.5 (OCLT of 1
    Thursday 5/29/14 8:00 am FC 21 & CC=0 (I’m OK)
    Thursday 5/29/14 9:30 am FC 2 & CC=0 (What in the world happened here?)
    Thursday 5/29/14 11:30 am FC 0/.5 & CC=0 (This cannot be normal)


    Now During all this I typically thoroughly brush the entire pool after the 5:30 am test. Later I would vacuum even though the pool was clean. I have backwashed 2 times even though there was no pressure increase … I just washed it out incase there was something in there.

    Prior to 5/21/14 I found some of the mold in the pool around the light niches (bezels). I have not found any of it in the pool since. But I have found a 2 inch segment ¼ inch diameter in the threads of the last return in the eyeball threads. I have found 3 nickel sized clumps in the pump basket which to me means the stuff must be (or was) in the supply /return lines.

    I realize I am using an inordinate amount of Chlorine. I read one of “Chem Geek” replies to someone on mold he pointed to a product called AquaFinesse which then I read about and have thought maybe what I have is this “Biofilm” in the piping. (ph had dropped which is supposedly another symptom of the biofilm).

    Anyway I am on the roller coaster of emotions thinking I am on it and then not.

    Any … Suggestions, Opinions (or Scolding) would be appreciated.
    Thanks
    Bill


    Note. Someone on a TFP post mentioned diluting FC tests to save on 0871 fluid. (50 % pool water with 50% distilled water mix then use a 10 ml sample of while slamming as that now 1 drop = 1ppm with the TFT-100. I was burning thru the 0871 fluid. I have ordered & received replacement fluid, David is very prompt).
    Last edited by OldPoolBoy2; 05-29-2014 at 03:52 PM. Reason: formating was off
    20,000 gal, 18 x 36 IG Vinyl, 1.5 HP Hayward 2610x152S two speed, Sta-Rite S870 sand filter, Raypak 265,000 BTU P-R26A-EP-C, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldPoolBoy2 View Post
    Note. Someone on a TFP post mentioned diluting FC tests to save on 0871 fluid. (50 % pool water with 50% distilled water mix then use a 10 ml sample of while slamming as that now 1 drop = 1ppm with the TFT-100. I was burning thru the 0871 fluid. I have ordered & received replacement fluid, David is very prompt).
    This is not generally recommended. Although it would have been easier to just use 5ml of pool water and skipping the distilled water.
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    I had these all set in columns but when I posted them they did this.


    Day Date Gal Used that Day FC (AM ) CC (AM) OCLT (AM result)
    (12% Sodium Hypochlorite)
    Wed 05/21/2014 16 ? ? --
    Thurs 05/22/2014 10 18 0.5 8
    Fri 05/23/2014 13 21.5 0.5 4
    Sat 05/24/2014 16 19 1 5
    Sun 05/25/2014 11 23 0.5 5
    Mon 05/26/2014 10 18 0.5 9
    Tues 05/27/2014 16 19 1 7
    Wed 05/28/2014 11 30 1 1
    Thurs 05/29/2014 NA 31 0.5 1


    Hope this looks better.


    Day Date Gal Used that Day FC (AM ) CC (AM) OCLT (AM result)
    (12% Sodium Hypochlorite)
    Wed 05/21/2014 16 ? ? --
    Thurs 05/22/2014 10 18 0.5 8
    Fri 05/23/2014 13 21.5 0.5 4
    Sat 05/24/2014 16 19 1 5
    Sun 05/25/2014 11 23 0.5 5
    Mon 05/26/2014 10 18 0.5 9
    Tues 05/27/2014 16 19 1 7
    Wed 05/28/2014 11 30 1 1
    Thurs 05/29/2014 Not completed yet 31 0.5 1
    Last edited by OldPoolBoy2; 05-29-2014 at 03:56 PM. Reason: formating was off this post could be deleted now
    20,000 gal, 18 x 36 IG Vinyl, 1.5 HP Hayward 2610x152S two speed, Sta-Rite S870 sand filter, Raypak 265,000 BTU P-R26A-EP-C, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    I think if you put the CODE tag around them [CODE} your stuff [/CODE} ... using square brackets it will retain the formatting. Use the "preview" option in the advanced editor to play with it until things look right
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    Thanks for both suggestions will do.
    20,000 gal, 18 x 36 IG Vinyl, 1.5 HP Hayward 2610x152S two speed, Sta-Rite S870 sand filter, Raypak 265,000 BTU P-R26A-EP-C, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    I just noticed a Table button as part of the options when using "Go Advanced". That is really great since I make tables and to force formatting in the past I've used "......." to force spacing, but that's ugly.
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    He used the TABLE TR and TD commands, which parallel the HTML commands in usage but use square brackets like other forum commands.
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    Well I thought I was making progress as I had 2 days of OCLT of 0/1.
    Then I went to confirm it with a third evening and then I had a OCLT of 6 followed by a OCLT of .5 the next night I figured I get more good test and I am done with the SLAM. That night it was a 6. I figure that must be an anomaly. I figure I need to continue and be sure. That following night the OCLT was a 2. I figure that’s not right so I’ll continue Next day it rained 2 inches with monsoon winds and I get OCLT of 14 (… debris, frogs and 6” salamanders) , so I continue on another day. Next day of 1” Rain (more debris also) that evening produces an OCLT of 9. Next day starts a south wind that deposits the buds/flowers from the lone black cherry tree in a seemingly never ending flow into the pool. I have a “sock” filter over the skimmer and we clean this out several times during the day. The day following the rain with only the wind blown debris the OCLT was 3 so I figure that’s good. Last night I got an OCLT of 1.

    Question 1
    What FC loss range or extra Chlorine should /would I be expecting to with winds delivering rain debris etc?

    Question 2
    I cannot seem to keep any residual FC in the pool when the sun hits it. Even 6-7 days ago when I got the two evening of having a OCLT of 0 and 1. The CYA has remained a consistent level 50/55 range.) Is it possible that some baqu **** additive has bound with the CYA that allows it to test with the chemicals in the Test Kit but not allow it bind (buffer) with the Chlorine.? (I was using the baqucil with CDX and the ENDURE product)

    I am getting worn out. Still not using the pool. I’m looking for ideas.
    Thanks


    (Oh to Chem Geek and JasonLion to get the columns lined up I originally wrote in word and used tables there. I was worried about being timed out in TFP. I used GO advanced. Then in the top left tab of the editor I clicked on the A/A icon to go WYSIWYG then I used the third Icon to the the right of it (paste from word). That seemed to do the trick for the columns.)
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    1. Some rain should not affect the OCLT results. The 1ppm allows some minor organics in the water. Is the pump running the entire time?

    2. With that level of CYA, I would think you should not be losing a lot to the sun. I think there is still stuff in your pool. What step of the conversion process are you on?
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    OK I now have 3 consecutive days of an OCLT of;
    1 (& CC = 0.0)
    .5, (& CC = <0.5)
    0 (& CC = 0.0 ---Last night).

    I have been attempting the SLAM since May 23 ...this makes 2 weeks.
    (Plus the prior 2 weeks before the May 23 of less diligent attempt).
    I have not seen any traces of the "white mold substance in over a week.

    Is the pump running the entire time?
    Yes and it has been running continuously for the last month.

    What step of the conversion process are you on?
    I was hoping that I was at the end. But even yesterday with two consecutive days of good OCLT the FC level got "wacked" as the sun came up.
    example
    5:15 am FC = 26.5 CC=<.5
    9:15 am FC = 14 CC=0
    12:30 pm FC = 3 CC=0
    3:30 pm FC= .5 CC=0

    Brush/and vacuum pool then as sun becomes less direct ...start adding chlorine.

    I would have thought by yesterday's am numbers and CYA of 50/55 that I would have kept more chlorine during the day.
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    Well I am on my 22’d day of attempting to get this thing in order. I am finally getting some residual chlorine during the day. I was getting frustrated and when jblizzle said that I must still have something in the pool I had doubts …I now must agree.

    I am getting closer but not sure I am there. There is no doubt I have something resident in the piping. I will refer to it as “biofilm mass or biomass”. I have not found any in or around the lights in two weeks, (lights have been removed from niches) but I have found it in the pump filter basket.

    First a chart. Hopefully date and OCLT display properly. (Then see next post with photos ... I hope)


    Day Date Gal 12.5% used OCLT Notes
    Wednesday 05/21/2014 16 --
    Thursday 05/22/2014 10 8
    Friday 05/23/2014 13 4
    Saturday 05/24/2014 16 5
    Sunday 05/25/2014 11 5
    Monday 05/26/2014 10 9
    Tuesday 05/27/2014 16 7
    Wednesday 05/28/2014 11 1
    Thursday 05/29/2014 8 1
    Friday 05/30/2014 5 6
    Saturday 05/31/2014 7 0.5
    Sunday 06/01/2014 5 2 (2" rain) Frogs, dead salamanders, leaves etc
    Monday 06/02/2014 4 14 (1" rain) open sand filter -- green globs
    Tuesday 06/03/2014 3 9
    Wednesday 06/04/2014 4 3
    Thursday 06/05/2014 4 1
    Friday 06/06/2014 4 0
    Saturday 06/07/2014 7 0 1 Biofilm mass pump basket sock on skimmer
    Sunday 06/08/2014 2 0 sand filter --- clean white sand
    Monday 06/09/2014 6 3 1 Biofilm mass pump basket
    Tuesday 06/10/2014 2 0
    Wednesday 06/11/2014 1 0


    I'll follow this one up with photos.
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    Next I thought maybe some pictures and narrative might be helpful.

    May 8 photo several days in the Baquacil conversion.
    (valve in recirculation mode then vacuumed to waste before filtering with new sand)
    5847 5_8 precipate from conversion 6x4.JPG

    Two weeks of what seems like not getting anywhere… FC not holding during daylight. (Now I look back and it was not holding overnight either … OCLT but being a neebie I thought it ought to hold something during the day)

    May 21 The *** “biofilm mass” around light bezel. *** start of intense attempt to rid of **** ***
    5869 5_21 around light 6x4.JPG

    May 21 Pool looks crystal clear
    5872 5_21 clean pool 6x4.JPG

    May 27 Find “biofilm mass” in pump filter basket. Brown color where it must have been attached to inside pipe fitting. (probably elbow, or pvc joint)
    5884 5_27 brown shows attached to pipes 6x4.JPG

    June 2 decide to see what inside sand filter look like after back wash. Green globs … I suspect these are biomass clumps absorbing the chlorine. I am not finding any in the pool. (They are normally white when I found them ). Scrape off and discard. Dig through sand and find “vein” of green sand. Dig out and discard..
    5950 6_02 inspect filter after backwash find green matter 6x4.JPG

    June 7 (no photo) find single biomass in pump filter basket. Confirms to me that stuff is in the pipes. I’ve had a filter sock over the skimmer basket for a week (clean it out several times day to prevent surface material from even getting to sand filter). This means it had to come either from the pool and thru the drains or it was in skimmer or drain pipe to the pump. Mass is white in color.

    June 8 first time FC has been able to stay above 9 during the day even with me adding daytime Chlorine and on this day its low was only 19. Granted it was cloudy but I’ll take it. (most times drop to 1 to 3 or 0) (See chart on previous post.)
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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    Pool clarity
    5952 6_06 clear pool 6x4.JPG

    June 9 find biomass in filter basket. This one is green like that I found in the sand filter.
    5960 6_09 in pump basket 6x4.JPG


    June 11 have not found any biomass for 48 hours. And have had 4 days straight days where lowest FC level was 15 during the day. (again several days of mostly cloudy weather). And several days of favorable OCLT results.


    I am at least getting optimistic.
    20,000 gal, 18 x 36 IG Vinyl, 1.5 HP Hayward 2610x152S two speed, Sta-Rite S870 sand filter, Raypak 265,000 BTU P-R26A-EP-C, TF-100 Test Kit

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    Re: Baquaci conversion not holding FC during sunlight.

    I forgot to ask the question if anyone had had an experience with the white mold or biomass like I have shown in the photos? I think chlorine is the answer but wonder if there might be a more aggressive treatment.

    Thanks
    Bill
    20,000 gal, 18 x 36 IG Vinyl, 1.5 HP Hayward 2610x152S two speed, Sta-Rite S870 sand filter, Raypak 265,000 BTU P-R26A-EP-C, TF-100 Test Kit

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