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Thread: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

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    Question Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    Before I delve into the issues that I'm concerned about, let me first state two important things:
    (1) Although I have ordered a TF-100 test kit, it has not yet arrived to my home. Currently, I am using an WalMart HTH 6-way test kit until the TF-100 arrives. The TF-100 should arrive by next Tuesday.
    (2) I have a sand filter (details in signature), but it is not currently operational - I have to replace the sight glass (leaking) and the flange clamp, which should also arrive by next Tuesday.

    I am concerned because I did things quite out of order...I filled the pool up with water before verifying the sand filter works, and now I have to add chemicals without the benefit of filtration - I need to add chemicals to avoid having a green swamp by the time that my filter is finally working!

    Speaking of adding chemicals...here's what's been done so far:
    (1) HTH 6-way test performed yesterday at 8:30 PM:
    - Total chlorine (OTO): 0.5 ppm
    - Total alkalinity : 150 ppm
    - pH : 8.2
    - Cyanuric Acid : 0 ppm (I could've guessed this, but I checked just in case)
    - Total hardness : 0 ppm

    CHEMICALS ADDED LAST NIGHT:
    - 41 oz. of 8.25% Great Value Regular Bleach [to reach 3 ppm chlorine]
    - 45 oz. of WalMart HTH Stabilizer (96% CYA) [to reach 30 ppm CYA and pH 7.6]

    (2) HTH 2-way test performed tonight at 5:30 PM:
    - Total chlorine (OTO): < 0.5 ppm (lowest color on scale)
    - Total pH : 7.5 (at least I reached this target!)

    NO CHEMICALS ADDED YET.

    Today I looked into the pool to see how the chemicals would behave in an unfiltered pool. Around noon today, there was a very strong "chlorine" smell (I know, someone will probably say it's combined chloramines) and I could see the solid stabilizer powder along the vinyl bottom of my pool. Concerned that the acid in the stabilizer may eat through my liner, I used a large pool brush to agitate the pool water several times today (total time ~1 hour), simulating the circulation of a filter (without removing small particles, of course). I was really only able to brush near the walls of the liner because I wasn't sure if it was safe to get in the pool to reach the center. A couple hours later, the "chlorine" smell was gone, which indicated to me that either the bleach had not been mixed well due to the lack of a working filter or dissipation of chlorine over the course of a day. The white powder from the stabilizer is still evident on the bottom of the pool liner. Finally, although the water is still clear blue and not cloudy, the surface of the water has several spots with translucent white bits of slime/scum - would this be the beginnings of algae (image shown below)? Or could it possibly be calcium buildup or something?

    photo.jpg

    I have not yet SLAMed the pool. I did not want to add that much chlorine without first having a balanced pH and without having a working filter.

    So now here are the main questions that I have:
    (1) Should I continue adding bleach to fight off algae? I don't think I will add any acid because I am worried about HCl tearing through my liner without a filter.
    (2) Should I perform any additional tests (in the HTH 6-way kit)?
    (3) Once my filter IS working, should I backwash or wait additional time for CYA to dissolve first (the CYA will have been in the pool about a week before my filter parts arrive)? Will the CYA still dissolve in about a week if I continue brushing the liner floor?
    (4) What is the translucent slime/scum on the surface of my water?
    (5) Is the pool safe to swim in with current levels of bleach and CYA without filtration?

    Some additional information that may be helpful:
    - We have had heavy rainfall for multiple days in a row since installing the pool. I didn't put the pool cover on. It has rained lightly between the test I performed last night and the test performed tonight.
    - My pool was installed and water was added on May 6, 2014.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    Welcome to TFP!!!

    1. Yes add bleach, but you should brush it around. You can add acid the same way, slowly pour it in and brush brush bruch
    2. Not really.
    3. You put the CYA in the pool (not recommended), so it is not in the filter and thus you can backwash when required. Hopefully the CYA will dissolve quickly (keep brushing) and not bleach the color out of your liner (did I mention we do not recommend throwing it in like this )
    4. Pollen? Could be bits of the CYA powder?
    5. It is the same water you take a bath in ... the only thing that gives me pause is if there is still bits of CYA everywhere.

    Do you have a net to scoop all the floating crud out?
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    I would continue with the bleach. Walk around the pool as you slowly add it. Once its in take your leaf net/ pool brush/ broom and walk around the pool a few times to stir the water up. Should work with the MA also, but I'll leave that one to the experts.
    12000 Gallon IG Plaster built 2/15/2014. Jandy 340 sg ft 127 gpm filter, Jandy 1 HP stealth pump. Circupool RJ-45 SWG (overkill). TF-100 with Speed Stir.

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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    Thanks for replying so quickly!!!

    Whether or not I could add bleach was my main concern. I assume staying at the 3 ppm level for now is what I want (I don't want to SLAM just yet, right?). Another question that I have: should I be testing the chlorine level multiple times each night (after adding bleach)? If so, how long should I wait? Currently, I have only been testing and adding late at night. Should I increase that somewhat?

    Yeah, I know I kinda messed up adding the CYA in that way. There's a lot to learn here at TFP, and I guess I assumed I knew what I was doing. The remaining CYA in the pool is also why I was concerned about swimming in it. Okay fine, I suppose I'll wait until it's safe to swim

    I do have a net to scoop out the crud, which is what I shall do now. Thanks again!

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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    UPDATE: I have discovered that jbizzle was correct...the bits of floating scum in my pool was partially dissolved CYA. After getting a closer look at the bits this morning, it was clear that there were undissolved stabilizer crystals in it. The good news is that my brushing method seemed to work...there is no longer stabilizer powder on my liner floor and it hasn't been bleached out either!

    Now, on to another issue...because my CYA level has not yet been reached, my FC loss throughout the day is high. For two nights in a row, I tested TC below or at 0.5 ppm (what FC loss should I expect after a full day? 1 ppm or so?). After adding 51 oz. of 8.25% bleach last night, I tested the TC and pH this morning (2 ppm and 7.5, respectively) to make sure that chlorine wasn't being eaten up by stuff in the pool. Since I only lost 1 ppm TC, I assume my CYA level is responsible for the chlorine loss. Should I increase my TC target to 4 or 5 ppm? I am trying to avoid shock levels for now.

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    By any chance can you bypass the filter and run the pump on re-circulate?

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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
    By any chance can you bypass the filter and run the pump on re-circulate?
    I could try that. That's a great idea. But I'm not sure it will work because my valve doesn't have a secure connection to my tank (I have to replace the flange clamp). I will try it tonight. Assuming it doesn't blow up and rip my limbs off, I will post whether or not it worked.

    Thanks to everyone for their help. This is such a wonderful resource for pool owners!
    11k gal 22' x 52" Intex Vinyl AG, 1.5 HP Hayward PowerFlo pump with Pentair Tagelus sand filter, installed May 6, 2014

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    You should certainly increase your FC target to 5-6 so that it does not drop below your minimum. I would assume your CYA is around 30ppm for now and try to keep the FC above 2ppm at all times.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    You should certainly increase your FC target to 5-6 so that it does not drop below your minimum. I would assume your CYA is around 30ppm for now and try to keep the FC above 2ppm at all times.
    Thanks, jblizzle. I will increase my FC target to 6 ppm for now.
    11k gal 22' x 52" Intex Vinyl AG, 1.5 HP Hayward PowerFlo pump with Pentair Tagelus sand filter, installed May 6, 2014

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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    Leebo, I tried recirculating but the water is still leaking out of my sight glass. It might just be because there isn't proper pressure in the tank due to my missing flange...otherwise, my spider gasket may be blown in my valve...PLEASE let it not be my spider gasket!

    Keeping with that same idea, I bypassed the filter completely by running hose directly from the pump output to the inlet on the pool. Now pool water is circulating beautifully. Is this method putting too much pressure on my liner?
    11k gal 22' x 52" Intex Vinyl AG, 1.5 HP Hayward PowerFlo pump with Pentair Tagelus sand filter, installed May 6, 2014

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    The sight glass should only get water when in backwash or waste mode. Any other time and likely your spider gasket is leaking.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    The sight glass should only get water when in backwash or waste mode. Any other time and likely your spider gasket is leaking.
    Well that figures. I have already spent ~$50 buying replacement parts for the valve. Guess I need to spend another $10 to get the spider gasket. At this rate, I would have been better off buying a brand new valve for ~$75!

    Is it typical to replace just the gasket or is the whole key assembly usually replaced?

    Thanks for all the help!
    11k gal 22' x 52" Intex Vinyl AG, 1.5 HP Hayward PowerFlo pump with Pentair Tagelus sand filter, installed May 6, 2014

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    Some you can just replace the gasket ... others you have to replace a larger piece.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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    Please help me identify this

    Do not start another thread with info that pertains to your current thread and issues. Please keep it together as it is easier to follow your pool saga. Casey~

    I have been having multiple problems with my sand filter and now I'm pretty sure I need to replace my multiport valve...problem is, I cannot identify which valve it is! I've looked through all the Hayward, Pentair, and Praher information that I could find on the internet and not one of them match my valve! One unique feature of mine (picture attached) is that each port (WASTE / RETURN / PUMP) is oriented 90 degrees with respect to one another. In the picture, the RETURN is on the left, WASTE is the black pipe on the right, and the PUMP outlet is jutting out towards the screen...the sight glass and pressure gauge are both mounted on the opposite side. The entire assembly (bottom of diffuser to very top of handle) is a little over 13.5" tall. The multiport handle has six selections (FILTER / WASTE / CLOSED / BACKWASH / RECIRCULATE / RINSE), so there is no WINTER slot like the 7-ways. The manufacturer pipe fittings are 2" FIP, but you can see that pipe fittings have been added on. The valve says HAYWARD VARI-FLO VALVE on the top, and is rated for 50 PSI and 60 GPM with 10 PSI max head loss - there are no identifying numbers associated with it - no serial, no model #. I initially thought it was a Hayward SP071621, and I ordered the GMX600NM filter-to-valve clamp (which fits on the SP071621) to see if it was right - it wasn't, it was too large and seemed more oval in design. According to PoolCenter.com, because my handle says not to change position with filter operating rather than the valve body, it is a Praher look-alike. But that doesn't seem right either! Does anyone have ANY idea what valve this might be?

    I should also say that I am not 100% sure of the info in my signature - my filter may not be an S270T as I got it used. However, my pump is Hayward model #SP1580X15, if that helps.

    photo.jpg
    Last edited by Casey; 05-17-2014 at 04:21 AM. Reason: Moved post to pre-existing thread.
    11k gal 22' x 52" Intex Vinyl AG, 1.5 HP Hayward PowerFlo pump with Pentair Tagelus sand filter, installed May 6, 2014

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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    You will probably have better luck with a picture taken from the top and in focus so someone can read it. That label on the top looks pretty good but no one can see it.
    Dave S.
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    Re: Please help me identify this

    This issue has been resolved, just in case anyone is interested or having a similar problem. I talked with a guy that repairs filters and he immediately identified my valve as a PENTAIR PAC FAB 262506. Even though the sticker on top says that it is made by HAYWARD, it definitely is not. Sorry for the blurry image, but my phone camera is the best I can do at this point.
    11k gal 22' x 52" Intex Vinyl AG, 1.5 HP Hayward PowerFlo pump with Pentair Tagelus sand filter, installed May 6, 2014

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    Question regarding CYA test

    So as mentioned before, I have a 6-way HTH test kit (my highly anticipated TF-100 apparently will not make it to my house until wednesday) and I'm not sure what to make of the result that I obtained from my recent CYA test.

    I tested my CYA level two days ago because I wanted to see whether most of the acid had dissolved in the water...I was curious because I've been without a working filter since I installed the pool (thanks to Leebo's advice though, I am using my pump to circulate the water). Anyway, when I tested the CYA (yes, I did it at waist level with my back to sun and all that) the black dot only disappeared when the tube was completely full. Because the black dot did disappear, the CYA level is not zero. The lowest mark on my tube was 30 ppm, and supposing that the scale continues logarithmically, I estimate that the top of the tube may be about 27-28 ppm CYA. So my questions are:
    (1) Does my approximation of the CYA level seem reasonable.
    (2) Given that I was aiming for CYA level of 30 ppm, should I add more stabilizer or consider myself at my goal?
    11k gal 22' x 52" Intex Vinyl AG, 1.5 HP Hayward PowerFlo pump with Pentair Tagelus sand filter, installed May 6, 2014

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    I would add about 10ppm more CYA, assume you are 35-40ppm and retest in a week.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    I would add about 10ppm more CYA, assume you are 35-40ppm and retest in a week.
    Thanks! I know the recommended procedure is to add CYA via a sock in the skimmer basket (learned the hard way), but I actually don't have a skimmer basket. My pool is an above ground Intex, with an inlet and an outlet. I have a leaf basket in my pump, but otherwise I'm not sure how I could do this. Should I instead place the sock in front of my return? If so, what methods should I use to suspend the sock in front of the return?
    11k gal 22' x 52" Intex Vinyl AG, 1.5 HP Hayward PowerFlo pump with Pentair Tagelus sand filter, installed May 6, 2014

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    Re: Chemicals added w/o filtration - help with next steps, please!

    Yes, in front of the return works well. Can you post a pic of your return area? It seems like some kind of clamp should do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by isaac737 View Post
    ... Should I instead place the sock in front of my return? If so, what methods should I use to suspend the sock in front of the return?
    16k gal, 28'x3.5', Vinyl A/G, 1hp Pentair Dynamo 2-speed Pump, Hayward S160T Sand Filter, Intermatic HB800RCL Digital Timer, Intex 8110 SWG, TF-100 Test Kit, SpeedStir Author: Jesse's Graphical Pool Testing Log

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