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Thread: Updated/finished - Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

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    Smykowski's Avatar
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    Updated/finished - Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    If only the equipment could be as easy as the chemistry....

    I went out to turn the pumps on do test my water, and I noticed that one of them wasn't working. Just got a buzzing sound, and nothing else. No start capacitors, so I knew that wasn't the issue. Disassembled the wet end to check for an impeller clog. Not the problem. Spun the shaft by hand easily. Not the problem.

    Got close, and smelled that acrid electrical burnt smell. Uh oh.

    Took it all apart, and this is what I found:





    The top one is looking in the back side of the motor. The next two are looking in from the wet end.

    Can I just go ahead and assume that with the windings burned up like they are, this motor is toast?

    Assuming that's the case, I need to think about how to proceed, because I think my setup now is pretty inefficient. I've got a Hayward PowerFlo Matrix pump attached to a Hayward S180T sand filter, basically X2. Two skimmers, two returns, two pumps, two filters. There's a heater on one side, no water features, all on a 33' round AGP. Basically, do I need two pumps? Can I run just one pump and run new plumbing all the way around the pool to the other side? Or do I need to have a second pump for the second filter. The pumps' label has it rated at 1.5HP with a 1.0SF. I downsized the impeller last spring from 1.0HP to 3/4HP.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    I would think that your one remaining pump would do the job, provided you replumb a bit at the pad. What I'm thinking is combine the two skimmers with a three way valve, with the pump output to both filters in parallel, again with an infinite adjustment three way to balance the flow between the filters. You may need to put the larger impeller back in, though.

    I'm not a hydraulics expert, but I think this would be doable and work well for you.

    Think about how many times we've helped others figure out the pump size needed for their pools, and mostly have come up with a 1-1/2 hp pump for pools larger than yours.
    15'x48" 4500 gallon Intex pool, buried 1.5 ft. Pac-Fab Dynamo 3/4 hp pump. Hayward S180T sand filter, bought used. Taylor K-2006 test kit. Rocket mass heater based wood fired pool heater.

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    That was my thought as well, three way valves, combine the return lines before the pump, then split them again after the pump.

    The bigger question is, I'm running nearly 100' of new PVC (50' for the skimmer and 50' for the return around the pool) plus pushing the water through 2 50lb filters. I figure my 1.5hp pump with 1hp impeller can handle a 250lb sand filter, so the filter aspect isn't the problem. Does adding all of the pipe cause too much head loss? The pump is well below the water line, so I assume that helps a lot.

    Doing the work isn't the issue for me, I just have no idea how to do the hydraulic calculations/estimations.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    Forgot to be more specific on my setup. Each pump/filter/skimmer/return combo is on opposite sides of the pool. If I go the single pump route, I will have to run a PVC line from skimmer all the way to the other side to the pump, then run another line all the way from the pump back to the other side of the pool for the filter.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    I wouldn't think that would be a problem. In checking out some of the build logs here, there are quite a few with what I would consider long runs, and they don't seem to have any problems running single 1.5hp rated pumps.
    15'x48" 4500 gallon Intex pool, buried 1.5 ft. Pac-Fab Dynamo 3/4 hp pump. Hayward S180T sand filter, bought used. Taylor K-2006 test kit. Rocket mass heater based wood fired pool heater.

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    Yeah, the more I think about it, any large inground pool is going to have a similar runs for all of the piping.

    Now I have to decide if I can handle the aesthetics of that much pipe laying on the ground around the pool.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    You've seen my pipe bending with a hair dryer, right? Bend you pipe and run it as close to the pool as you can, then you can cover it with whatever you have around your pool. Hidden until you need to pick it up if you do that for winter.
    15'x48" 4500 gallon Intex pool, buried 1.5 ft. Pac-Fab Dynamo 3/4 hp pump. Hayward S180T sand filter, bought used. Taylor K-2006 test kit. Rocket mass heater based wood fired pool heater.

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    If you run parallel runs all the way to/from the pump, the head loss will probably be lower than the way you have it now because the flow rate in each run is ~half of what it was before so the head loss in those runs will be about 1/4th of what it was before (assuming the pump is midway between the old pump locations). If you want to can keep the second filter which would keep flow rate low and backwashes infrequent. Remember for filters, lower flow rate is better. For backwashing, you can shut off the opposite side so that all the backwash goes through just one of the filters.

    But as for the old motor, do you have an ohm meter? You could check continuity on the winding's. It looks like one shorted. It might be fixable but since you have a second pump, I wouldn't bother. Just save the wet end for parts.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    I have a multimeter with an ohm setting. Where do I put the probes to take a measurement?
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_R View Post
    You've seen my pipe bending with a hair dryer, right? Bend you pipe and run it as close to the pool as you can, then you can cover it with whatever you have around your pool. Hidden until you need to pick it up if you do that for winter.
    Do you have a link? I may actually need to do this, because I think 45 elbows may not be shallow enough.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    This is what I was telling you about. An electrician friend showed me this trick.

    Tape a 1200W hair dryer to one end of the pipe you want bent, and secure that end to whatever you are using as a form. As the pipe gets warm, it will allow you to pull it around your form. The form should be just a little smaller than what you want for a finished bend, as it will have some springback.

    Once you have your bend, turn off the hair dryer, and let the pipe cool on it's own. You may have a little deformation at the ends, so you might lose 6" of pipe at the hot end.





    15'x48" 4500 gallon Intex pool, buried 1.5 ft. Pac-Fab Dynamo 3/4 hp pump. Hayward S180T sand filter, bought used. Taylor K-2006 test kit. Rocket mass heater based wood fired pool heater.

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    Very cool. That would help immensely with the "neatness" factor. Plus, if I could do the runs up high and attach them to the pool, I could probably drain them in the winter and leave them up year round.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    Even with mine being low, I've secured them with a slight slope so they are self draining, with the removal of an end cap.
    15'x48" 4500 gallon Intex pool, buried 1.5 ft. Pac-Fab Dynamo 3/4 hp pump. Hayward S180T sand filter, bought used. Taylor K-2006 test kit. Rocket mass heater based wood fired pool heater.

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    To measure the winding's, you just put the ohm meter across the power leads (remove power line wires first). Most winding's are in the 1-2 ohm range. If close to 0, there is a short somewhere, if infinite, probably a broken winding wire.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    @Charlie....how did you secure the pipe to the uprights?

    @Mark....it's a twist lock plug, so the pump is bench testable. Just to make sure I understand correctly, undo the wirenuts that connect the plug to the motor, and test the continuity at that point? I can test it in the next couple of hours and post the results. Out of curiosity, what scenario would be repairable, and how would that repair take place?
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    If you can unplug the motor, then you can test it at the plug.

    As far as repair, I have never repaired winding's myself but it would be interesting to see if it is possible and how long it would last. Winding's are the hardest thing to repair in a motor but if the short/open is visible, which I think it is from the picture, it might be possible to fix it. Also, it would be important to keep the repair isolated so it doesn't cause another short to occur. But it might be possible to wrap the repaired wire with some insulating tape.

    Of course, the failure in the winding might have occurred because on an overload in the capacitor or bearings so you would need to make sure those are working properly.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    At least one of the bearings is shot, so I'd have to do both. In this case, I'm pretty sure the overload happened because the pump ran dry. Water level was slightly too low, and I had it on a timer, so wasn't paying close enough attention.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    I tied mine to the uprights with some 1/8" rope. Your pool will probably not have that option. PVC conduit clamps could be screwed to your uprights, but you may not want to add any new holes to yours. If you do, drill/tap screws of appropriate length could do it. A little silicon caulk under each leg of the clamps would help reduce the possibility of rust where the upright is pierced.
    15'x48" 4500 gallon Intex pool, buried 1.5 ft. Pac-Fab Dynamo 3/4 hp pump. Hayward S180T sand filter, bought used. Taylor K-2006 test kit. Rocket mass heater based wood fired pool heater.

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    I would say it is probably not worth the hassle in fixing.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Now it's my turn...help me pick out a new pump motor

    Thanks for the info guys.

    Looks like I need to talk to the boss about how she wants the pool to look. I found a replacement motor for about $130. I think all of the PVC, fittings, and valves would cost the same amount. It's probably more energy efficient to use only one pump, so I'd save in the long run by running new plumbing. Plus, when the second (now only) motor dies, it would be time to upgrade the circuit to 220v and a two speed motor.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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