I'm Back with a Green Pool, Bubbles, & Losing Water

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S

smileddog

0
May 16, 2009
56
Syracuse, NY
Hello All,

I am back. After finding this site useful for my above ground pool I haven't been around for years. My pool stayed clean and I just kept doing the BBB with it and everything worked great. Well I moved and bought a house with an inground pool. I bought it during the fall/winter and the pool was closed by then. it was holding water, i checked the filter/pump and what not and everything looked good. Hired a pool guy to come open it for me and show me the ropes. Well we opened it to a green pool with a ton of leaves at the bottom. Not how I am used to opening a pool to. :(

So I immediately started shocking the pool (Did the term change to slamming recently?) I didn't have my test kit out yet so I dumped a good amount of liquid chlorine in. Approx 15 gallons. Got all the leaves out, vacuumed and started scrubbing. After the first day I didn't see much improvement with the greenness so I went to the LPS and they recommended a bottle of YellowRid. Which turns out is baking soda. But anyways I used that and things improved a little. So I started scrubbing every day and each day its getting better.

Last night I found my test kit it was misplaced during the move. I tested and CYA is near 0 or very low maybe 5 or so. FC was 20. PH was 7.8 I believe, and I forget what the rest was. I looked up the pool estimate for how many gallons my pool is. 16 feet wide by 75 long I believe. Sorry trying to remember it all since I am at work. No flat shallow end. starts at 4.5 deep and goes to 6.5 deep with a slant all the way from one end to the other. I guess that's how they did it old school. So im guessing about 20,000 gallons. Shock level should be 12, we are at 20... whoops. but its clearing up and ill just keep scrubbing and vacumming and wont add more until it drops down to below 12. Hopefully I didn't ruin the liner. Going forward I will make sure this doesnt happen again. So I am not to worried about green. It keeps improving every day and I am using my pool patience. :)

What is driving me looney is all of a sudden bubbles started coming out of the return jets. Started as fizzy bubbles and now are big burpy bubbles. I did a ton of research and I am going to go home and check the valve right before the filter and make sure the o ring is set right, im also going to make sure the ring on the filter skimmer thing is seated right. and hopefully it is one of these and the bubbles go away. they wernt there for the first day right after we opened pool so its weird it happened out of no where.

2nd thing that is going on. wait no this is the 3rd thing... We are losing water. Pool sat all winter and water level stayed up. I cant remember if it was above the skimmer box or right at the skimmer box but it wasnt below it. When we run pump the water level drops and inch to two per day. We shut off the pumps and the water level dropped down to the skimmer box bottom. The wife is filling the pool back up now and turning off the pump to see if it will drop back down without the pump running.

So we are looking for help in regards to the bubbles, which I am hoping I can fix tonight. and the loss of water. Possibly the two are related.

So my plan. Go home, Check the valve before the filter and the filter cover for the skimmer in there and make sure both o rings are seated and sealed right. I am also going to see if when pump is on if water is leaking out the discharge hose for backwashing. If so then I know I am losing water due to a faulty Multiport valve. Our discharge runs into the ground under a deck thing so I will disconnect the hose and see if water comes out right at the filter. since i wont be able to tell otherwise. If the bubbles dont stop and water keeps leaking then I have a serious issue that I will have no clue where to start to fix. :(

Wife is freaking out. Worried we wont have the money to fix it and we will be a huge disappointment to our kids who were looking forward to swimming in our new pool this summer. :(

HELLLP! And thanks in advance.
 
update: So I came home tonight. Wife filled up pool past skimmer box right to the top of it. Let it sit for a few hours and water didn't go down. Pump was off.

So I brushed all the sides. Pool is getting clearer and clearer. I just keep saying patience... patience... It gets frustrating when you brush the wall and it kicks up more green. But I remind myself in the morning it will be clearer than it is now. So I feel confident I can kick the green.

I took of the union right before the pump, Checked the seal and all was good, I took the lid off the pump skimmer and all was good there too. Made sure to tighten all fittings just to be safe. I then took off the backwash hose right at the valve on top of the sand filter. I filled the pump with water, sealed it up and turned it on. No water leaked out the backwash outlet so I know the valve is fine. So check that off the list. I then noticed the big bubbles again. Ughhh. So then I turned off the floor drain and just let the skimmer work. Bubbles basically went away. Small little fizzies once in a while but basically gone. Hmmmm. So then I turned that off and turned just the floor drain on. I heard a sucking of air and eventually water returned to the outlets, big bubbles again and the filter pressure dropped way down. So this leads me to believe the culprit is the floor drain inlet to the pump. No clue how to even address this. So I went back and turned the floor drain off. I am hoping that A. I can just run the pool without the floor drain. Water might dip and inch until it gets down to the level of wherever the break is. and hoping that enough water will stay in pool to keep running the pool without the floor drain. I just will get a robot and or keep up with vacuuming. or B. There is an easy fix for this. I kept thinking if their is a hole there why don't they make like a fix a flat for a pool. You enter a solution in the water and it travels until it comes with contact with air wherever the leak is. Once air hits it then it solidifies and keeps building up on itself until the hole is sealed. Is there something like this out there? or is there an easier or better fix?

So what do I do from here? I'm running pump now and praying water level stays put just using the skimmer and not floor drain. Is this an expensive fix? Worth fixing or can I go without? I'm at a loss here.

My biggest fear is in a few hours I go out and lost all the water and I am back at square one knowing there is something wrong with the floor drain and have no choice but to pay a ton of money to probably have it fixed.

Pros please chime in. Anyone ever run into this please chime in. I'm scared ill be tossing and turning all night worrying I have a pool I cant use this year due to not being able to afford a costly repair our first year in.
 
Ok so it has been a few hours. Water level is holding steady still. just a fizzie once in a while in the return jets. Pretty sure that was the issue. So there is no way to DIY fix the floor drain? No Pool fix a flat persay? My only option is to cap it? Just want to know all my options before I cap it off.
 
Update: So water level slowly went down. Maybe 1/2 inch all day. a fizzie once in a while to no bubbles. Pool is clear and nice looking. A few spots of algae on the side walls. I scrubbed and vacuumed again today. Cant wait to see what it will look like tomorrow. Wife is def happy and impressed. :)

I checked out the links you guys provided and I dont think I want to go down that road with the fix a flat method. I think my hole is way to big with how much air was being sucked in and how fast I was losing water. I swear there has to be a hidden cave under my yard with a swimming pool full of water. LOL

So now I need to figure out how exactly I go about sealing off the drain with a cap and what to do next. I had on hand a container of Stabalizer. I used the pool calc and it says I need 4. So I am going to grab two more and use 3. then retest and see if I need the 4th to get it to 40. I am going to test tomorrow to make sure I am still at 12 FC or more still. Once I hold there for a few days with no visible sign of any algae then I plan on doing the overnight FC test to make sure I do in fact have it all. Had some one told me that I would open up Saturday to a murky green pool filled with leaves and junk, and then on Wednesday I would have a clear blue awesome pool I wouldnt have believed them. But man oh man do I thank this site for the Knowledge I have learned here.
 
Before you cap the main drain I would investigate to see if the potential leak is above ground. Does the main drain pipe go to the skimmer or the pump? If it goes all the way to the pump, have you checked the main drain line from the pump backwards until it goes into the ground? With the pump running run a hose over the suspect pipe. If the bubbles go away, you've found your leak. I've heard of shaving cream on the pipes also. If the shaving cream gets sucked in, there's your leak. I'd hate for you to cap the main drain if the leak is close to the surface ....especially if the water level was staying near the bottom of the skimmer all winter. If the leak were lower, the water level would have been lower also.
If the main drain goes to the skimmer, I would check the skimmer box for the same reason.
 
Hmmmm... Good point. The main drain goes back to a T right before the pump. The skimmer line runs to the T as well and they both meet up with a valve at the T and then go into the pump. These pipes look like they have had calk or something on them to prevent leaks before and they have the metal ring clamps where you screw them tighter to close and they look old and who knows if they are tight enough. But lets say yes that pipe is allowing air in and that is causing the bubbles. That doesn't explain where all the water is going when that pipe is turned on right? That just accounts for the air getting in. I don't see any water around this pipe so it is safe to assume water isn't at least leaking out at the surface where the air is probably getting in.

So if I shut off the pump, open up all the pipes and valves and let the pool sit. The water will lower to what ever level the leak is at right? if it only goes down to the middle skimmer bolt then I know it cant be in the skimmer because the skimmer box looks solid with no cracks, it would mean it has to be the skimmer return line or the drain return line to the pump, and i would only need to dig down 6-8 inches because thats about how low the water level would be in comparison to where these pipes pop out by the pump.

Does that sound right?

It couldn't be leaking in the lower part of the main drain because then the pool would drain past the skimmer box...

The water level if I remember correctly stayed to the top of the skimmer box when I filled the pool up and left it overnight. water level only goes down when I turn the pump on. Goes down faster when I have the floor drain line open and working, and goes down slower when i close that main drain line.

I'm so lost on what it can be. I will def try to make sure its sealed good and run a hose over those lines to see if the bubbles go away, might try the shaving cream trick as well. then at least I know I can fix that air leak. but then I am at a loss on the water leak.
 
True. The water will drop to the level of the leak. If it's at the skimmer box, the leak is at that level.

Suction side leak. This is between the main drain and the pump and is allowing air in and causing bubbles in your returns. It sounds like you have a good plan for this one. Once you find the leak, fixing it is easy.

Depending on where this leak is and when you're losing water it could be your only problem. If the leak is just under the surface (at the skimmer box level) it could be leaking water also when the pump is off. Air comes in with the pump on, water leaks out when the pump is off. I would start with the hose and/or shaving cream above ground and start at all the joints. If no luck, the next place I'd try is the main drain line at the level of the skimmer box.

The water leak could be a pressure side leak as well. Since you might be able to kill two birds with one stone, I'd wait on this option until you've exhausted the possibility above.

Oh yeah....SLAM means Shock Level And Maintain. Someone smarter than me came up with that.

Good luck!
 

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I researched a ton out of that pipe insert and it appears they only sell it to authorized installers of theirs. They won't sell it to the general public for DIY. Soooo I got to thinking that looks just like a vacuum hose. I am sure i could make what they made with the small diameter ball and string to pull the string through, then use a leader to pull a vacuum hose through. I checked the vacuum hoses and they have a thick end so i would need to cut that off and use a smaller diameter pipe and some way to attach it to the vacuum hose and then I would be worried about leaks yet again. As of right now with shutting off pump and letting water sit. since 10am this morning to 3pm the water went down 1/4 inch. I am going to leave it until the water level doesn't go down anymore. Then I will mark that level and hone in on all hoses and connections and what not at that mark. Praying I get this resolved soon. Our water bill will be through the roof and chemistry will always be out of wack if i have to keep adding water all summer trying to figure this out.
 
update: I let the pool sit all day yesterday and overnight without the pump running. The water level only went down to 1/4 inch. just about to the middle bolt on the skimmer box. I checked the skimmer box and there is no crack or leak there at that level. I checked the liner at that level and cannot find anything.

So it would mean there has to be a leak in one of the underground lines that come back up to the pump at that level or I am missing something. if it is at that level there is only one place it could be and thats right where they pop out of the ground at the pump.
I did notice before i turned off the pump that there was water around the pump. not gushing or anything but i just noticed the pavement was wet. So now I am wondering if maybe there is a small leak in the bottom of the pump that I didn't notice. and then maybe that explains the water loss only when the pump is running. i still need to do the shaving cream or water on the exposed pipes to see if air is leaking there.

i just feel there are soooo many options it could be that i really dont know what to do to pinpoint the issue. I have the few things I can do to try to narrow it down but worry if those come up nothing than i am back to square one.
 
Update.

I did the shaving cream test on the exposed pipes and didn't see any leaks. I then went and purchased a #8 plug and swam down in the freezing 60 degree water and puggled the main drain line. Let the pool run its course and well the water seemed to leak out at an ever faster rate. I called the pool guy he said to turn off the pump and see what happens. So at this point the water level was just at the bottom of the skimmer box sucking in air anyways. So I turned it off and here i am 24-48 hours later and it hasnt dropped a bit. He thinks that its one of the return lines and when they are under pressure they are leaking. Question is how do I determine its them and not the skimmer line? if it is the return lines how do i determine which one since I have two. I just want to throw my hands up and give up. I have to keep adding water and the pool is staying around 60 degrees. The wife and kids keep asking me if I am closer to fixing it and I have no idea. The pool guy is booked for a few weeks and can't make it over until then. So he is trying to help me best he can through texts and emails but I am not even sure if he knows what it is. Praying someone has some advice for me. Id like to at least pinpoint the leak. From there I can isolate it and then work on a plan of attack. Both the returns have saw cuts and the concrete has been removed by the previous owners. I was told everything was ok and they replaced them and never put the concrete back but put big steel plates just in case they needed to go back. I never saw water in the holes where its backfilled with dirt so I assumed all was well and when we bought the house the water level was high so it said to me all was good.

Any suggestions on where to go from here?
I was thinking I dig out the dirt in each of those holes and expose the return jets and see if the leak is there. I was also thinking once they are exposed I would plug one at a time and then run pump and see if the water stays. my only concern is both lines will still be under pressure as soon as i turn the pump back on. I don't see a valve or anything to control one return and not the other.

SOMEONE PLEASE SAVE ME. I WILL BUY YOU A BEER OR TWO. YOU HAVE MY WORD. :)
 
Update: Water kept leaking from the pool. It was an inch a day typically. I decided to dig out the return jets.

image by smileddog, on Flickr

I dig out both jets and all looked good. A pool guy stopped by who was a friend of a family member and took a look for me. We made sure all the screws were tightened on the jet covers and the skimmer box. All was tight. I didn't even think about those covers having a screw loose.

He then told me the piping to the jets was replaced recently because it is newer white piping. He spotted older black piping and it was for the skimmer box. He said most likley that was the line that was leaking and recommended I dig up the line and the box to have it replaced.

So I did.

image by smileddog, on Flickr

It was not fun. Not easy and I hated every bit of it. As I was about a foot away from the skimmer my buddy goes and rechecks the return lines. Sure enough one was dripping. It was dripping a drop every 4 seconds. I took off the return jet nozzel and the return face plate was cracked and missing a chunk at the bottom where you couldn't see without removing the nozzle. I ran to the LPS and bought one for $6.86 went back and replaced it and the leak stopped. I kept digging at the skimmer because there was no way that all this water was leaking out from that small drip. I got the the bottom of the skimmer and there was no leak. I was furious. A part of me wanted to smash my hammer through the pipe just to feel like I was there for a purpose.

Since I was there we decided to replace the old black pipe all the way back to the pump. I hired the pool guy for this part. Since he was a family friend and I already did most of the hard work he didn't charge me much. Here is what we did and the cleanup.

image by smileddog, on Flickr

image by smileddog, on Flickr

image by smileddog, on Flickr

After I replaced the face plate and stopped the small leak I filled up the water and marked it at the water line I waited 24 hours to see what would happen before filling in the hole.

Well I came back to check it and no water was gone.

FINALLY!

The pool is slowly rising in temperature again since I am not adding hose water every 2 days. And we took a dip in it today. It was still a chilly 68 degrees but by friday It should be above 70. and we are going to turn on the heater this weekend to get it up to 80.

Just wanted to post my final finding to help the next person out. I can't believe I overlooked the silly face plates. But I am glad that I can rest easy that all my lines are the newer pipe and as long as I care for them properly should last me many years.

The floor drain was the black piping and we are 100% sure its broke somewhere in it. So the plug is staying in. I pointed a return jet towards the bottom on the end of the pool and with our robot and vacumming by us we should be fine. Pool has been clear and blue all summer.

The neighbors have come over to tell us the last owners always were struggling with a green or cloudy pool and I must know what I am doing since its been sparkling clean since opening it.

I have this site to thanks for that. :)
 
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