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Thread: Sorry....another bonding question

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    Unhappy Sorry....another bonding question

    So I've done a lot of reading hear on TFP about bonding. Great information is found through out the forum and I've learned a lot...but I still have a question.
    I understand the need for a bonding loop and bonding all the metallic items (heater, pump, filter, lights, stairs, etc) and now I'm worried! I'm replacing a pump and installing at SWG and by way of reading the installation instructions, I stumbled on the whole "bonding loop" requirements...which lead me to find out that it appears there is no bonding loop around the pool. So my question is, now what? I've got a concrete pad that circles the pool which is between 3' and 6' wide. I have two light posts and an outlet in the ground that are about 6 ' from the pool edge. It would be relatively easy for me to run #8 copper between the lights, outlet, pump, filter, heater, SWG, but I don't see any way that I could loop/connect the pool and stairs. Any suggestions?
    Thanks
    Tim.
    18k IG vinyl pool, Jandy CV460 Cartridge filter, Hayward MaxFlo Variable Speed 1.5hp pump (SP2300VSP), Hayward Aqua Rite Salt Generator with 25K Gal Cell, Teledyne Laars Series One heater, Blood, sweat and tears manual cleaner (trying to decide what to get to replace me), no automation.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    The first step is make sure there isn't already some bonding system in place. Sometimes the bonding wire to the pump gets disconnected and buried, presumably quite close to where the pump is located. If you can find any portion of the existing bonding system you can just extend it to connect to your new equipment.

    Second, only metal in direct contact with the water, or within 3' horizontally of open water, need to be bonded.

    If you have to start from scratch it is quite difficult to do as a retrofit, though possible.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    If there is a bonding system in place, at least around the pool, I don't think it extends to the pool equipment (pump, heater, SWG, etc). I have a metal detector (recent Christmas gift) that I used to search for wire running between the pool and the equipment location (about 35' distance) and couldn't find any. Although, there was a major renovation done in 2008 by the previous owner (he left me the work order) which involved replacing the concrete pad and stairs. This was done by a pool company, so I would have assumed they would have upgraded and included the bonding. The work order didn't specifically mention bonding either.
    18k IG vinyl pool, Jandy CV460 Cartridge filter, Hayward MaxFlo Variable Speed 1.5hp pump (SP2300VSP), Hayward Aqua Rite Salt Generator with 25K Gal Cell, Teledyne Laars Series One heater, Blood, sweat and tears manual cleaner (trying to decide what to get to replace me), no automation.

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    steveg_nh's Avatar
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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    You could check for continuity between a few things. If you have a bonding circuit you would have continuity. A cheap digital multimeter has this feature on it. You could check between your deep end ladder, and something on your pad. Do you not see ANY bonding wire on ANY of the devices on your pad (besides the pump)?
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    Bonding at this point means chipping out enough concrete to make a connection to the rebar in four spots spaced around the pool, likewise dipping out one of the ladder anchors to connect each ladder, getting a connection to the pool walls somewhere (more concrete chip out), and making saw cuts in the concrete to run copper wire from those locations to a new bonding loop, which may also need to run in concrete saw cuts in some places. All of that assuming there is rebar. If there isn't any rebar then technically the deck needs to be replaced.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    I just went through laying out my bond wire for under my deck, wihich is pavers. Everything is bonded. The small concrete footing for the coping no rebar in that, so no bonding to that. We did bond the mesh that was put in some of the larger concrete footings though, like for the diving board, deep end ladder, and around the stairs for support the rails (both sides of stairs).

    What I really don't get though, is the requirement for the bonding wire to be under the pavers. We certainly did it, but it just makes no sense. It only had to be 18-24" out from the side of the pool, yet the patio extends out 25' in some places. What about a paver location 5' out from the water line. It's not bonded. kind of a comical requirement for a paver patio. I guess the say it's about the water that could be retained in the paver, that the bonding helps with. But unless pavers are "connected" since they sit next to each other, really, on the ones directly over the wire are bonded. Right?

    Merccooper, did you check the electrical inspector's office to see if they had a permit for bonding? Do you not see a bond wire on anything?
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    The requirement is everything within 3' horizontally from the water. Pavers are conductive, not very conductive, but enough to be a risk, so they have to be bonded if you can touch them from in the water. The rules were not written to take pavers into account, so how inspectors interpret the rules when pavers are involved varies.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    Yeah, that's what I thought too. It's not like pavers are one big unit, like concrete. And the wire is supposed to be 3" below finished grade. Most pavers are 2 3/8", so the wire isn't even touching the pavers. And then all pavers are separated by sand or something in between. Seems silly for pavers, but whatever, we did it.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    Thanks for everyone's input, it is very much appreciated.

    "Do you not see ANY bonding wire on ANY of the devices on your pad (besides the pump)?"

    Nope, I don't see any sign of bonding wire, even the original pump didn't have a bonding wire. My equipment is in a shed with a wooden floor. In my efforts to replace the pump I have also replace a section of piping which required me to dig up a good section in the area of the pump (as well as remove the shed flooring) and still did not see anything.

    "did you check the electrical inspector's office to see if they had a permit for bonding?"
    I could try that...but if it isn't done right, would I risk getting fined until it is retro fitted?

    Thanks Jason for the input on what would need to be done. That is a lot of work! Beyond my physical capability!

    So....before the Bonding Loop regulation (not sure when it came into effect, but from reading other posts, it looks to be less than 10 - 15 years) were there a lot of people get electrocuted?

    I'll do some more digging and searching...but not holding out too much hope!
    18k IG vinyl pool, Jandy CV460 Cartridge filter, Hayward MaxFlo Variable Speed 1.5hp pump (SP2300VSP), Hayward Aqua Rite Salt Generator with 25K Gal Cell, Teledyne Laars Series One heater, Blood, sweat and tears manual cleaner (trying to decide what to get to replace me), no automation.

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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    Quote Originally Posted by Merccooper View Post

    So....before the Bonding Loop regulation (not sure when it came into effect, but from reading other posts, it looks to be less than 10 - 15 years) were there a lot of people get electrocuted?
    I would love to know the answer to this question. It was funny too, as I was getting ready for my patio, I kept getting different requirements from the two inspectors in my town (the head vs assistant). Even they seemed confused on the requirements...
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    There have been bonding rules of one form or another for quite a while. Still, before that not very many people had problems, some years no problems at all, some years one or two people. A child was electrocuted at a public pool last year because of improper bonding. The general attitude in the regulation area is that one child once is too many.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    What confuses me, is the difference in the two between grounding and bonding. They are very different. You would think even in the case of improper bonding, proper grounding would still prevent electrocution.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    Bonding is about protecting you when you are in the water. Grounding is about protecting you when you touch an electrical appliance. The risks in the water can come from several sources, not just electrical appliances: lightning and ground currents are the most obvious examples.

    As it happens, proper bonding protects you in the pool even in the case of incorrect grounding, but improper bonding puts you at risk in the pool regardless of what else is done correctly or incorrectly.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion View Post
    The general attitude in the regulation area is that one child once is too many.
    Point well made!
    18k IG vinyl pool, Jandy CV460 Cartridge filter, Hayward MaxFlo Variable Speed 1.5hp pump (SP2300VSP), Hayward Aqua Rite Salt Generator with 25K Gal Cell, Teledyne Laars Series One heater, Blood, sweat and tears manual cleaner (trying to decide what to get to replace me), no automation.

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    steveg_nh's Avatar
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    Re: Sorry....another bonding question

    So I don't see how just having a mesh, or even a bond wire, just running under pavers, only relying on the pressure of the weight for contact, really does much. As you mentioned, pavers likely weren't fully considered when the code was written.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

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