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Thread: Ready to begin BBB (?)

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    astronaut888's Avatar
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    Ready to begin BBB (?)

    Ok
    I posted a few weeks ago about new liner and water fill which I just had done
    Have been using TFPC method to get my levels right and currently looking like:


    20k vinyl liner / 1.5 hp motor / sand filter
    FC 6 adding about 60+ oz 8.25 bleach daily in the evening - so, losing around 2ppm a day - pretty much full sun, when sunny
    CC zero
    CYA 40
    pH 7.5
    TA 80

    I am interested in using BBB method, as I did use optimizer in the past with bioguard system and really felt it made a difference

    The above levels have been steady over the past few weeks and I feel I have a good overall grasp of the daily upkeep with the TFPC method

    I have read the posts on the forum about how to go about adding acid / Borax and have everything I need with respect to the anticipated volumes of additives.
    My main concern is the raise in TA that I am going to see

    Anyone feel I would be better off NOT going ahead with the Borax/acid addition? as it would throw my TA out of whack?
    If I go ahead with BBB - will I really need to lower the TA? - I will be anticipating a rise in TA of around 115 giving me an anticipated TA of approx 200.

    If I raise TA to this level, will I need to lower?
    As far as the TFPC methods I have read about / employed so far.........lowering TA is the one I don't really want to attack as it seems so laborious and time consuming !!

    If the TA will really need to be addressed after implementing the BBB method - I may be inclined to simply stick with the TFPC method without borates
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Smykowski's Avatar
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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    Borates are optional. We recommend that members get their chemistry and under control for awhile before they even think about adding borates.

    I'm not sure what connection you're making between Bioguard optimizer anf the TFPC method. Can you explain this

    Finally, I'm not seeing much wrong with your chemistry. What test kit are you using? I would say just keep your FC in range for your CYA and you're good.
    33' round, 23,000 gal AG vinyl , 1HP 2spd PowerFlo Matrix downsized with 3/4HP impeller (X2), Hayward S180T 150# sand filter (X2), Hayward H250 NG heater Pool Store year 1 - $850 for 2 months; Pool Store year 2 - $440 for 2 months, TFPC year 1 - $170 for 4 months; TFPC year 2 - $95 for 4.5 months
    The most important article on this site - The ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry

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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    May I ask why you want to add borates ? Most folks on here don't. Your test results look great and you seem to have a good understanding of the TFPC method. If it's not broke don't fix it.
    Jeff
    24'x54" AG Morada RTR (by wilbar) 13'500 gal. Hayward Powerflo Matrix 1hp 2 speed. Hayward Perflex EC65 DE filter.

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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Smykowski View Post
    Borates are optional. We recommend that members get their chemistry and under control for awhile before they even think about adding borates.

    I'm not sure what connection you're making between Bioguard optimizer anf the TFPC method. Can you explain this

    Finally, I'm not seeing much wrong with your chemistry. What test kit are you using? I would say just keep your FC in range for your CYA and you're good.
    Using taylor 100 (that's the name yeah?)
    I'm happy w chemistry as i see it - just curious about TA rise with adding borax
    Optimizer is the borate addition system with bioguard yeah?
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrstrk View Post
    May I ask why you want to add borates ? Most folks on here don't. Your test results look great and you seem to have a good understanding of the TFPC method. If it's not broke don't fix it.
    Just thinking that any additional help keeping FC in check and algae away would be of benefit
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    I'd suggest sticking without Borates (same as Biogaurd Optimizer, only cheaper) for now. See just how the water acts and feels to you. If down the line you'd like to try you'll have a better understanding of your waters patterns. For now, I'd say if it ain't broke don't mess with it.

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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    How did you come up with TA of 200 after adding borates. When done by the how to section your TA will have a slight rise. That's why the target should be 70 to 80 for SWG or liquid chlorine. I would look at chem geeks post some more before you dive into it. Your numbers look good and it looks like your starting to see a trend. Let it go a little longer so you can see a pH trend. When your pH is stable your TA is stable.
    17500 gallon Doughboy AGP, Hayward DE filter, waiting for the 1.5hp DB pump to go out.
    Learn to take the advice here and be trouble free or use the pool store's advice. "You can't do both and get very far"

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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    I see it now. You used effects of adding chemicals. For 20000 gal it shows 1177 oz of borax. It also shows you will need 561 oz of muriatic. The borax will bring it up by 115 and the acid will bring it back down 110.

    17500 gallon Doughboy AGP, Hayward DE filter, waiting for the 1.5hp DB pump to go out.
    Learn to take the advice here and be trouble free or use the pool store's advice. "You can't do both and get very far"

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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by jcowart View Post
    I see it now. You used effects of adding chemicals. For 20000 gal it shows 1177 oz of borax. It also shows you will need 561 oz of muriatic. The borax will bring it up by 115 and the acid will bring it back down 110.

    Sent from my VS870 4G using Tapatalk

    Ok - if that is the case it isn't something I recall learning in my reading about BBB
    I knew the addition of acid would counteract the pH rise that would come with Borax but didn't think it would also counteract any of the TA increase as well
    I thought the only way to lower TA was through aeration.
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
    I'd suggest sticking without Borates (same as Biogaurd Optimizer, only cheaper) for now. See just how the water acts and feels to you. If down the line you'd like to try you'll have a better understanding of your waters patterns. For now, I'd say if it ain't broke don't mess with it.
    I guess I'm just being overly anxious with my newfound control over my pool chemistry!
    My understanding was that the BBB method was kind of the ultimate gold standard in water management .
    I also have bought into the idea that the addition of borates would truly improve appearance and feel of the water ... I seem to remember feeling that way about optimizer when it was added - but - it could have been simply a function of my water being well balanced at time irrespective of borate presence
    I have been a bioguard slave for 10+ years and my newfound freedom is overwhelming me a bit - it seems too good to be true!

    And I love the analogy seen here on the forum of you pool being like a pet - feed and take care of daily even if you're not gonna play with it every day !
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    My understanding was that the BBB method was kind of the ultimate gold standard in water management .
    The TFPC method is about knowledge. We teach the things necessary to manage your own pool and have the finest, clear water available.

    The important part to remember is that it comes from LEARNING what we teach......not learning what the pool store wants you to buy.

    Adjusting pH and TA

    pH up - 20 mule team borax (Ta comes up, too)
    pH down - Muriatic acid
    TA up - Baking soda
    TA down - aeration and acid...it's process found in Pool School that you must read to make TA change quickly and permanently
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Administrator Leebo's Avatar
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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by astronaut888 View Post
    I have been a bioguard slave for 10+ years and my newfound freedom is overwhelming me a bit - it seems too good to be true!
    We were in the same boat a few years ago using Baquacil. Often the hardest thing is sitting back knowing all is well. You're used to needing to dump in product after product to keep things working right, and now that you've learned what YOUR pool needs.......it's easy to get jumpy.

    There are several benefits that borates do bring to the table. Many people do like the "feel" they give the water......they can help with your pH level......and so forth. Just don't feel like you HAVE to add them, just because. All seems well with your water, as long as you've got those little sparkles in the pool........enjoy a cold beverage.

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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by astronaut888 View Post
    I thought the only way to lower TA was through aeration.
    Yes if your just working on high TA. Adding borates is a different process. That's why you do the borax and acid process. It brings it up then right back down and your left with borates. Most still get hung up on target numbers. Really for a vinyl pool the only hard target numbers are FC, pH, and CYA. If you start with high TA, you wait till your pH is at the upper range and add acid. It brings pH down and TA down a little. Over time the TA will find a happy home and the pH will become stable. The process of lowering the TA is for someone that wants it down right then. It feels nice learning what your pool needs but take it in steps and do what your doing "ask questions". That how you learn and that's what we are all here for.
    17500 gallon Doughboy AGP, Hayward DE filter, waiting for the 1.5hp DB pump to go out.
    Learn to take the advice here and be trouble free or use the pool store's advice. "You can't do both and get very far"

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    astronaut888's Avatar
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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by duraleigh View Post
    The TFPC method is about knowledge. We teach the things necessary to manage your own pool and have the finest, clear water available.

    The important part to remember is that it comes from LEARNING what we teach......not learning what the pool store wants you to buy.

    Adjusting pH and TA

    pH up - 20 mule team borax (Ta comes up, too)
    pH down - Muriatic acid
    TA up - Baking soda
    TA down - aeration and acid...it's process found in Pool School that you must read to make TA change quickly and permanently

    Gotcha about the pool store - I can't imagine needing anything from there again other than CYA when needed - don't feel bad though, as I feel I financed them over the past 10 years! and they have no shortage of suckers coming in every day!
    I have read about reducing TA - but, since it wasn't something I had to do initially as my fill water required addition of baking soda to raise b/c fill water was very LOW TA, I didn't truly study the lowering method.
    However, my cursory understanding was that aeration was the method and that addition of the acid incrementally was simply to counteract the raise in pH accompanied with aeration while lowering the TA and not that the acid itself actually resulted in lowering TA.

    I'll read it again.

    Thanks
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    astronaut888's Avatar
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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
    We were in the same boat a few years ago using Baquacil. Often the hardest thing is sitting back knowing all is well. You're used to needing to dump in product after product to keep things working right, and now that you've learned what YOUR pool needs.......it's easy to get jumpy.

    There are several benefits that borates do bring to the table. Many people do like the "feel" they give the water......they can help with your pH level......and so forth. Just don't feel like you HAVE to add them, just because. All seems well with your water, as long as you've got those little sparkles in the pool........enjoy a cold beverage.

    Thanks for response

    Part of my desire to add borates may stem from the fact that I bought out wal-mart of Borax when I started this process of implementing TFPC upon pool refill (!)

    I honestly thought - mistakenly - that Borax was part of TFPC and was needed

    However, it is something I want to do ultimately - but will chill on for a while until I feel super confident in all other chemistry.
    Has been going fine and as expected so far - but, have yet to introduce any swimmers or summer heat to the equation
    20K gal, IG vinyl, 1 1/2 HP Hayward Super Pump , 100lb sand, installed 2000 - new liner/filter/pump March 2014
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: Ready to begin BBB (?)

    Quote Originally Posted by astronaut888 View Post
    Has been going fine and as expected so far - but, have yet to introduce any swimmers or summer heat to the equation
    That's the best part. When you get to sit back and smile when other "pool stored" pool owners are over and comment on how clear your pool is. Just know it's hard to turn someone that's unwilling to grasp the idea to the CLEAR SIDE. You can smile to yourself in your mind that you did it at a fraction of what they spent on a somewhat clear pool. Hold on to the borax for now and take a look at Chemistry 201. When your ready to do the borax, ask questions.
    17500 gallon Doughboy AGP, Hayward DE filter, waiting for the 1.5hp DB pump to go out.
    Learn to take the advice here and be trouble free or use the pool store's advice. "You can't do both and get very far"

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