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Thread: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

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    Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    Hi folks, well I just pulled the cover off to catch some free water falling today, and to start opening the pool. This is year two for me opening/closing the pool (new house). Last year my liner was floating when I took it 4 inches below the returns... I ended up with a rip in one end (while trying to get rid of the wrinkles) and lots of wrinkles in the bottom and side near returns (due to the shift). I gave up trying to sort that out but thought this time around I would leave the water just above the returns and just below the skimmer... I figured more water less chance for the liner to float... and well it worked - sort of... I still have some water behind the liner in the walls and shallow corners... should I just fill it and force the water out and deal with it... or should I drain it ? I am afraid more ground water will fill the hole if I drain... so I am predicting you folks will say no to drain and yes to fill... but this means I get stuck with the wrinkles forever...

    How to I stop the water from coming in behind the liner... I have a lot of concrete around the pool from house to a retaining wall... the retaining wall does have gravel and a tile (I think that is what its called - plastic tube with holes in it) along the back side at the base of the wall (under about 3 feet of dirt) that leads to a drain that is run off for the house. could be that it is not able to get deep enough for the water, or who knows...

    I know sooner or later I will need a new liner, and I want to be sure I have fixed this with a better way to close or something so I know that a new liner will not get destroyed due to water lifting and so on.

    thanks










    Pool 16 x 33.5 Foxx Pool with rounded corners 3.5 at each end and 5+ in the middle (16000 GAL)

    Equipment - 300 LB Hayward filter with a Pentair SuperFlo pump (3/4 HP). Also Hayward H series Heater and a dedicated jet for a Polaris 280 with a booster pump (3/4HP). Hayward Chlorinator CL200.

    Pool has Main Drain, 2 return Jets with 1 inch eyeballs, a skimmer with floating weir, and the dedicated Polaris jet. Also has a valve for the Waterslide.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    The key thing is did the floor move or not? As long as the floor stayed in place, it is normally very easy to get the walls to go back into place. If the floor shifted, things are much more complex. When the floor shifts, if you have a fairly new liner you can drain the pool and re-set the liner. But with an older liner you are likely to need to replace the liner.

    Occasionally, it is possible to move the liner back into place, even if the floor has shifted and without draining, though this is a fairly difficult process at best and doesn't always work. You can often move liner material around using a toilet plunger, pressing down and then pulling horizontally while pulling back up. You need to be fairly athletic to get that to work well, and even then you don't have fine control over the process.

    Your best long term option is to build a fairly extensive ground water drain system all around the pool, which can get expensive. Second choice would be to switch to a closing method that does not require draining the pool. No drain winterizing is a bit less safe than a partial drain, but generally works out alright. Alternatively, if you know when in the year the ground water is high, you might be able to open the pool during that period, though this may involve extra effort, and there is always the risk you are wrong about the timing.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    thanks Jason... The liner is old... 6-7 years and last owner over Chemed it so its bleached out and all that... but holds water just fine, so I am holding off till it doesn't to replace it... I do not think the floor shifted this year... (it did last year and that's when I ended up with wrinkles) Would you advise dealing with it till I replace or should I use the opening time to do anything... I have the cover off and its raining cats and dogs (free water)... I tried to get some movement out of the wrinkled areas last year and it was no use in trying... I do have a drain system in the patio area but I guess its not deep enough or something I don't know... I have heard that people dig deep holes and put gravel in and a pump to help pull water out... I don't know.... bummed that I have this problem... I can take pics or give better detail if it would help you help me? Otherwise I will roll with it as is and just know I cant get the wrinkles out till I get the liner replaced... But I don't feel like its smart to replace the liner till I figure out the water situation.

    thanks for your thoughts!!!
    Pool 16 x 33.5 Foxx Pool with rounded corners 3.5 at each end and 5+ in the middle (16000 GAL)

    Equipment - 300 LB Hayward filter with a Pentair SuperFlo pump (3/4 HP). Also Hayward H series Heater and a dedicated jet for a Polaris 280 with a booster pump (3/4HP). Hayward Chlorinator CL200.

    Pool has Main Drain, 2 return Jets with 1 inch eyeballs, a skimmer with floating weir, and the dedicated Polaris jet. Also has a valve for the Waterslide.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    If you don't think there was any new floor movement, I would just try raising the water level slowly and see if the walls go back into place. Then link along with it for as long as the liner holds out.

    A proper drainage system is a fairly major project. You need a fairly deep trench all the way around the pool with landscape cloth, drainage pipe, and gravel, with the pipe running to somewhere low that doesn't flood. You can then cover that up so it doesn't show.

    Installing well points is an alternative approach. You dig two or three holes fairly deep, below where the trench needs to be for the other approach. Then a very similar landscape cloth, gravel, and drainage pipe approach, but this time the pipe heads up to near the surface and a pump pushes the water out of the holes to a pipe that heads off into the distance. Well points means way less digging, but you need pumps running the entire high water table season to be safe.

    Well points are sometimes your only choice when the land is flat and the high water table is everywhere, i.e. there is nowhere for the trench drain to drain to.

    Feel free to ask more questions.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    You can see here I have no way to get real close to the pool:



    And here you can see the wall at the back:




    at the bottom of that wall just below concrete level there is a tile that runs along the bottom to the side of the yard and then connects to the drainage that runs out to the street... I guess they didn't put it deep enough... who knows...
    Pool 16 x 33.5 Foxx Pool with rounded corners 3.5 at each end and 5+ in the middle (16000 GAL)

    Equipment - 300 LB Hayward filter with a Pentair SuperFlo pump (3/4 HP). Also Hayward H series Heater and a dedicated jet for a Polaris 280 with a booster pump (3/4HP). Hayward Chlorinator CL200.

    Pool has Main Drain, 2 return Jets with 1 inch eyeballs, a skimmer with floating weir, and the dedicated Polaris jet. Also has a valve for the Waterslide.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    What you describe is the correct treatment for a retaining wall. Unfortunately, that is a completely different thing from reducing ground water around a swimming pool.

    Unfortunately, given your layout there isn't going to be a simple solution. That situation will require either taking up the pool deck or a long and unusually deep trench if you want to seriously lower the ground water level. Sadly, it would have been a fairly easy thing to do when the pool was first being installed.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    Well that's a bummer... it figures... I only se this when I open the pool... after I fill it its fine best I know. I will keep thinking and looking I guess... it would cost a fortune to go into the concrete.
    Pool 16 x 33.5 Foxx Pool with rounded corners 3.5 at each end and 5+ in the middle (16000 GAL)

    Equipment - 300 LB Hayward filter with a Pentair SuperFlo pump (3/4 HP). Also Hayward H series Heater and a dedicated jet for a Polaris 280 with a booster pump (3/4HP). Hayward Chlorinator CL200.

    Pool has Main Drain, 2 return Jets with 1 inch eyeballs, a skimmer with floating weir, and the dedicated Polaris jet. Also has a valve for the Waterslide.

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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    In my pool, there is a small perforated pipe, probably 1" or maybe 3/4", that is run along where the bottom of the side wall meets the floor (inside the pool shell). It only runs along a portion of one side. That pipe connects to a sump pit that is several feet from my pool. I think the previous owner must have added it after the pool was in place to prevent the liner from floating. So far it works for me.

    I suppose you could do the same with your pool when you replace the liner. It would take some boring to get from the pool to the other side of your retaining wall, where you could put the sump pit.
    14k gal IG vinyl, Jandy Flopro 1 hp up-rated, 2 spd pump, Hayward 325 sq ft cartridge filter, Circupool Si-40 SWCG

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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    Hmmm... I can see that working... not sure how to dig for the pipe to run up from the floor of the pool though... but I can visualize that working. thanks for the tip...

    Its rained so much here the past day or so its flooding in areas... seems like this morning I have a little more water behind the liner than before... I hate that it does this... I cant seem to come up with any fix...



    Pool 16 x 33.5 Foxx Pool with rounded corners 3.5 at each end and 5+ in the middle (16000 GAL)

    Equipment - 300 LB Hayward filter with a Pentair SuperFlo pump (3/4 HP). Also Hayward H series Heater and a dedicated jet for a Polaris 280 with a booster pump (3/4HP). Hayward Chlorinator CL200.

    Pool has Main Drain, 2 return Jets with 1 inch eyeballs, a skimmer with floating weir, and the dedicated Polaris jet. Also has a valve for the Waterslide.

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    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    The only thing you can do in the short run is raise the water level in the pool. The more water there is in the pool the higher the ground water needs to be to cause a problem.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

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    sargent's Avatar
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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    In my pool the pipe doesn't come up from the floor of the pool. The is a pipe that goes almost horizontally under the wall of the pool to the sump pit. It drips into the pit, and when the level gets high, the sump kicks on and pumps it out to the street and into the storm sewer. I wish I had taken pictures when my liner was being replaced.
    14k gal IG vinyl, Jandy Flopro 1 hp up-rated, 2 spd pump, Hayward 325 sq ft cartridge filter, Circupool Si-40 SWCG

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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    Oh, I did get a picture, but not a very good one. In the middle of the pic you should be able to see the perforated pipe.



    14k gal IG vinyl, Jandy Flopro 1 hp up-rated, 2 spd pump, Hayward 325 sq ft cartridge filter, Circupool Si-40 SWCG

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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    thanks for the pic... that helps... My problem is I have so much concrete I am unsure how to get a sump in the ground and connect it to the pipe on the
    Pool 16 x 33.5 Foxx Pool with rounded corners 3.5 at each end and 5+ in the middle (16000 GAL)

    Equipment - 300 LB Hayward filter with a Pentair SuperFlo pump (3/4 HP). Also Hayward H series Heater and a dedicated jet for a Polaris 280 with a booster pump (3/4HP). Hayward Chlorinator CL200.

    Pool has Main Drain, 2 return Jets with 1 inch eyeballs, a skimmer with floating weir, and the dedicated Polaris jet. Also has a valve for the Waterslide.

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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    After filling the pool the rest of the way and taking a floor broom over the walls its about 95% back to normal (well with the wrinkles from last year)... I wish it wasn't so cold... I would get my scuba gear on and try the plunger idea... I think with a little water still behind the liner I might be able to make the wrinkles a little better... if not get rid of some.


    I will keep messing with it... I tossed the robot in this morning to get the worms out... next I need to get the Chemicals right and start getting everything back in and on the pool...

    Please keep ideas coming in... so far the best one is waiting to put a pipe along the side when I replace the liner... but still would need to get to a sump pit some how...

    thanks guys...
    Pool 16 x 33.5 Foxx Pool with rounded corners 3.5 at each end and 5+ in the middle (16000 GAL)

    Equipment - 300 LB Hayward filter with a Pentair SuperFlo pump (3/4 HP). Also Hayward H series Heater and a dedicated jet for a Polaris 280 with a booster pump (3/4HP). Hayward Chlorinator CL200.

    Pool has Main Drain, 2 return Jets with 1 inch eyeballs, a skimmer with floating weir, and the dedicated Polaris jet. Also has a valve for the Waterslide.

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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    let me ask you guys... It seems like when I put more water back in the pool it all went back to normal (minus the wrinkles) I know what the recommendation is... but what would it be like if instead of lowering the water to below the skimmer to close, if I raised it, or kept it at normal height... I would still blow out all the lines and cap the returns (I use pool antifreeze too) but I would bring the water up or not drain it at all to keep the ground water out come spring time... My pool is a sport bottom (5 foot in the middle with it slanting upwards at each end to 3 foot (so average of 4 feet)...

    Other wise I just cant come up with a cost effective way to add a sump...

    bummer... I need to find a way to feel better about this... I hate seeing the wrinkles in the bottom... but I am also afraid to try to get them out... all I need it a huge tare in the liner to top all this off.


    On a side note (new thread coming) you folks think I can do the Jandy Deck Jets (without the bodies) on my back wall? I would have it shoot from the walls edge tot he water... figure 2 or 4 down the wall... just a thought for a summer project.
    Pool 16 x 33.5 Foxx Pool with rounded corners 3.5 at each end and 5+ in the middle (16000 GAL)

    Equipment - 300 LB Hayward filter with a Pentair SuperFlo pump (3/4 HP). Also Hayward H series Heater and a dedicated jet for a Polaris 280 with a booster pump (3/4HP). Hayward Chlorinator CL200.

    Pool has Main Drain, 2 return Jets with 1 inch eyeballs, a skimmer with floating weir, and the dedicated Polaris jet. Also has a valve for the Waterslide.

  16. Back To Top    #16
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    It is possible to winterize the pool while leaving the water level high. This approach is a little less reliable than the regular approach, but generally works out. You need to find the correct cover(s) to close off the skimmer opening so you can drain the skimmer(s) and plumbing while the water is still above the top of the skimmer opening.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  17. Back To Top    #17

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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    Ah ok... I have see that skimmer door plug... smart idea... looking now for that to have on hand.... any other advice? or thoughts on adding a sump? or anything I haven't thought of...

    you guys are really cool to help out folks trying to get things right... I wish I had some say in the design of this pool... but it is what it is... I just want to get to that place where I can enjoy it and not have to deal with the trauma of water under the liner or any other unforeseen problem...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also FYI: I just made the donation to your site... you folks have helped me so often... I just want to say thanks!!! sometimes just a little bit of advice goes a long ways for folks like me... I just want to get things right is all... and I am stuck dealing with someone else's mistakes.

    thank you
    Pool 16 x 33.5 Foxx Pool with rounded corners 3.5 at each end and 5+ in the middle (16000 GAL)

    Equipment - 300 LB Hayward filter with a Pentair SuperFlo pump (3/4 HP). Also Hayward H series Heater and a dedicated jet for a Polaris 280 with a booster pump (3/4HP). Hayward Chlorinator CL200.

    Pool has Main Drain, 2 return Jets with 1 inch eyeballs, a skimmer with floating weir, and the dedicated Polaris jet. Also has a valve for the Waterslide.

  18. Back To Top    #18

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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    I have been looking for an Aquador that will fit... I am unsure if I will be able to find one... my measurements are like the one listed in this as Standard... Unless you think this is it: AQ1084_Diagram.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Pool 16 x 33.5 Foxx Pool with rounded corners 3.5 at each end and 5+ in the middle (16000 GAL)

    Equipment - 300 LB Hayward filter with a Pentair SuperFlo pump (3/4 HP). Also Hayward H series Heater and a dedicated jet for a Polaris 280 with a booster pump (3/4HP). Hayward Chlorinator CL200.

    Pool has Main Drain, 2 return Jets with 1 inch eyeballs, a skimmer with floating weir, and the dedicated Polaris jet. Also has a valve for the Waterslide.

  19. Back To Top    #19
    JasonLion's Avatar
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    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    Hayward is very popular, so that could easily be the right one. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to be sure unless you can find a brand or model number on the skimmer.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  20. Back To Top    #20

    Re: Water behind the liner (wrinkle in liner)

    Jason, regarding winterizing the pool while leaving the water level high...My PB in WV left our water level at normal height. He just inserted a half filled antifreeze bottle into each skimmer (and did not close off the skimmer from the pool or plug the skimmer lines). I hope everything is fine when I open the pool this year.


    20x44.5 (3.5 feet SE, 10 feet DE), IG, Vinyl, Hayward Cartridge (C4030), 2HP Hayward Super Pump (SP2615X20), 2 main drains, 5 returns, Hayward ColorLogic 4.0, Circu Pool RJ60 SWG, Hayward Heat Pro 140K BTU, Polaris 380, Polaris Booster Pump (PB4-60),

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