Become a TFP Supporter Pool Math Forum Rules Pool School
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 63

Thread: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

  1. Back To Top    #1

    steveg_nh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    825

    Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Hi All,

    I need to find out exactly what building codes my town goes by, but our inspector can't seem to make up his mind on what's required. Very wishy washy. And in the most recent discussion I had with him, I feel like he's trying to drum up business with me, vs just doing the inspection and telling me the requirements. That makes me question what he tells me.

    Let's backup to my neighbors IG installation last summer. The main inspector told him he needed a grounding mesh installed under the pavers. The assistant said "that's only for concrete, pull it up." So he pulled it. Then the main inspector said "put it back!". Ultimately the decision was it was not needed and he just has the single bond wire, about 18-24" out from the waterline, under the pavers.

    So I was worried I'd get the same runaround, so I called to make sure he knew what I was doing, so I'd have no issues once I start the patio. He tells me "you need a ground mesh, buried a couple of inches below grade" or "at least you need to run like 6 or 7 rings of copper wire out from pool, all the way around, all connected to each other in multiple places." He goes on to say "or there's something else they have which is like a copper blanket you can install." My head is spinning as I've already backfilled based on what they told me last summer. Burying a mesh or something know would be a huge pain...I challenge him a bit and then he says "well whatever is needed, I can help you out you know, but it's around $2,000." It sounded like extortion to me honestly. He's the wiring inspector, so he shouldn't be trying to solicit work on my jobsite in my opinion. So I tell him again, "remember my neighbor's pool, I believe all they have is a single bond wire and you guys signed off on it..." He pauses and then tells me he needs to go read up on it and research it a bit and get back to me.

    Sounds all a bit suspect to me. I know him from town, so he's known to me and I'm always a bit skeptical (thinking back to when I got a permit for my backup electrical generator install and the issues I had with that). But this whole thing feels weird. I want to be armed with information so whatever he tells me, I either agree, or can challenge him correctly. What I don't know is what my town uses as their electrical code guidelines. Obviously I want my pool to be 100% safe, but I also don't want to blow money that's not necessary.

    Can anyone offer and experience or expertise in this area? This is a 24x40' vinyl inground, which will have a 1300' Rinox paver patio around it...

    Thanks
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

  2. Back To Top    #2
    pwrstrk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Elverson Pa.
    Posts
    4,758

    Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Wow it's hard to believe the inspector doesn't know what the code is for your area and has to go and do some research. Your township should be able to supply you with the information you need to meet code.

    I know all pools and the water need to be bonded.
    Jeff
    24'x54" AG Morada RTR (by wilbar) 13'500 gal. Hayward Powerflo Matrix 1hp 2 speed. Hayward Perflex EC65 DE filter.

  3. Back To Top    #3

    steveg_nh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    825

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    It's pretty frustrating. But I know the pool is done right. It is bonded with a #8 ground all around the pool, ground rod, tied to panel, etc, etc. It's just about what's required under the pavers. I've always heard mesh for concrete, no mesh (bond wire only) for pavers. And he can't seem to just say. His assistant seems more confident if you ask me.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

  4. Back To Top    #4

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    350

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    I have pavers and they just ran the grounding wire all the way around the pool in a little trench and it passed with flying colors here in Manchester.
    18k: IG: Black Granite Liner: Aspen: 16x33.5: SWG: Polaris 280

    My pool build new-pool-build-in-nh-t60957.html

  5. Back To Top    #5
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,879

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    This requirement has been changing in recent versions of the code. Older versions required the grid, period. Newer versions allow the loop when the patio is not concrete. Different localities are on different versions of the code. It is also possible that someone who is very familiar with the old version didn't notice the change in the new version when the rules changed.

    Regardless, it is pretty much at the inspectors discretion, so not much we can do to help.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  6. Back To Top    #6
    gtemkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    738

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Quote Originally Posted by steveg_nh View Post
    I've always heard mesh for concrete, no mesh (bond wire only) for pavers.
    I believe it is just the opposite. Concrete, with a rebar grid that is bonded, essentially takes the place of a mesh, however pavers don't provide any bonding connection and therefor need a conductive grid beneath them. Of course this is all dependent on the code that is in effect.
    21K gal 16' x 40' in-ground pool built 1959, old school with Jacuzzi bronze pump, American Products 24" Sand Filter & Americana Multiport valve, Jandy Lite2 millivolt heater, Coverstar cover, and classic Kreepy Krauly.

  7. Back To Top    #7

    steveg_nh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    825

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion View Post
    This requirement has been changing in recent versions of the code. Older versions required the grid, period. Newer versions allow the loop when the patio is not concrete. Different localities are on different versions of the code. It is also possible that someone who is very familiar with the old version didn't notice the change in the new version when the rules changed.

    Regardless, it is pretty much at the inspectors discretion, so not much we can do to help.
    Except that he's inconsistent it seems. He just issued the occupancy permit for my neighbor in the spring. Paver patio, and just the single loop all around...

    Is this all in the NEC? Is that what I should read up on? I found this on our website, stating the install must meet National Electrical Code 2002 (NFPA Volume 70). So I guess compare that to the newer code?

    Thanks!
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

  8. Back To Top    #8
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,879

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Yes, it is in the NEC.

    If your area goes by the 2002 version, then a grid is required.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  9. Back To Top    #9

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Going with the most protection will help ensure that the inspector won't fail the job. The grid will help reduce the risk of stray currents causing problems.

  10. Back To Top    #10

    steveg_nh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    825

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Well, maybe that's why he said he wanted to research it, to see what changed. Not sure. Of course I want the pool safe, but I also don't want to spend money that isn't necessary.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

  11. Back To Top    #11

    steveg_nh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    825

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Reading up on the 2008 code, the mesh or "rings" connected together, seem required when you have what they define as a "conductive" pool material vs non (vinyl liner, with reinforcing steel walls already bonded). Need to read that a bit more.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

  12. Back To Top    #12
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,879

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    If you have a concrete pool (the only common conductive material) it must have a grid, or rebar serving as a grid. Long ago that was the only way concrete was made (i.e. with rebar). But these days there are non-conductive alternatives to rebar, which are not allowed for pools unless you also put a grid into the concrete.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

  13. Back To Top    #13

    steveg_nh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    825

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    I think my inspector is mixing it all up. So frustrating.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

  14. Back To Top    #14
    linen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Twin Cities, MN
    Posts
    8,649

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Quote Originally Posted by steveg_nh View Post
    I think my inspector is mixing it all up. So frustrating.
    I sure sounds like it...make sure you get him to tell you which version (year) of the code you should be following, then maybe you can "help" him access what you needd.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

  15. Back To Top    #15

    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Lake Nona, Florida
    Posts
    386

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Here we did the wire loop under paver and passed.
    The paver guy and the inspector remembered the mesh... because somehow it came up in a conversation about how I should consider myself "lucky" the rules changed.
    7500 gal gunite/stonescapes, iAqualink RS-8, Jandy 2HP VS-Flopro, Jandy 200 sqft Cartridge filter
    Pentair Intellichlor IC-40, Zodiac MX-8, Fafco solar panels
    DreamMaker X-500 Spa

  16. Back To Top    #16

    steveg_nh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    825

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Thanks. I have the 2008 code, I need to find the 2002 online now, so I can compare.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    I would suggest contacting the department, explaining your situation and asking them to give you written guidelines regarding what you need to do.

  18. Back To Top    #18

    steveg_nh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    825

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    My electrician called the deputy inspector yesterday, and he confirmed, ground loop only under pavers is all I need. He's going to be the one coming out to sign off on it, just before the pavers go down, so I should be all set. Pain in the neck. Thanks for everyone that chimed in.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

  19. Back To Top    #19

    steveg_nh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Southern NH
    Posts
    825

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Follow up question on this thread. Another thread on bonding made me wonder about something.

    One of the things I'm being very careful about with my bonding wire is making sure it won't get hit when the pool builder drills the pool cover anchor holes in the fall. With the paver patio, he said he uses extension tubes that are something like 15-18" long. So he could hit the bond wire when he drills down that deep. Now typically, this is not an issue (as I had discussed in another thread), since the bond wire is installed about 20" from the pool wall per the NEC (required to be 18-24" from wall), and the cover's anchors fall around 34-36" from the water edge. So no issue.

    But in a few spots, where the bond wire has to go back in toward the pool to connect to the 4 connection points of the steel pool walls, there's a small spot where the wire "leaves" it's loop, cuts back towards the pool and through the concrete footing (no mesh or rebar) for the coping to the connector, and then back out. Inspector and electrician say that's fine. So a few pavers along the course that's approximately 20" out from pool wall and follows the bond wire wouldn't have the wire underneath.

    More importantly I think, at my pool stairs, the patio builder poured a very solid footing for rail strength and to reduce any stair flex. This footing is 20" deep from water line, so the bond wire is right on the edge of the concrete footing, not another 20" out from there. Any further out, and I risk hitting it when they drill the anchors. So that first paver run pas the footing, will just be over the bond wire, if even at all in a few spots. A row of pavers will be over the concrete footing. Technically though, it IS 18-24" out from water line, but just on the edge of a large concrete footing. (I have a drawing if it helps.) This concrete does have mesh in it, and is tied into the bond wire with connectors in 3 spots on its own. Same with the concrete footing for deep end ladder and diving board (which has stronger rebar over mesh).

    How "sensitive" is all of this bonding stuff under pavers? If a few spots aren't directly over the wire, does it matter? I mean, as I think about it, that little #8 wire is only about 1/8" thick running a loop around the pool. There's hundreds of feet of patio not over it, and technically not touching it. So does somehow the whole paver patio "connect" itself anyway, just by the nature of the installation and the stones touching? Is this one thing I'm really overthinking? All electrical components, rails, ladders, light niches, etc are bonded perfectly.

    The electrician and inspector say it's all good and permits signed off on, but reading some of these threads on stray voltage has me freaking out a bit about safety. As I think about the bond wire as it is, especially at the stairs, I don't really see how it really "connects" to the pavers anyway, especially given the substrate between it and the pavers (the crushed stone, and stone dust).

    Thanks all. (sorry for the long post)
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

  20. Back To Top    #20
    JasonLion's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    37,879

    Re: Proper grounding and requirements for inground pool with paver patio

    Yes, you are overthinking it.

    It may not seem like it, but the pavers and their base layers are fairly conductive, not so you could use them for power wires or anything like that, but conductive enough that they will conduct stray currents to the bonding wire, even if it isn't in the totally ideal location. The bonding wire just needs to be "more attractive" to current coming from the outside, than passing all the way through the deck and into the pool. That is rather over simplifying the situation, but it is a good analogy for what happens.
    19K gal, vinyl, 1/2 HP WhisperFlo pump, 200 sqft cartridge filter, AutoPilot Digital SWG, Dolphin Dynamic cleaning robot
    Creator of PoolMath and Pool Calculator. Other handy links: Support this site, TF Test Kits, Pool School

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •