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Thread: Help, chloramines!

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    Help, chloramines!

    Pool Info:
    Zero-entry kid's splash pool. 6,400gals. Indoor. 3yr old plaster. Hpyo-cal chlorination.

    Yesterday morning the pool tested high for CC (FC: 5.0, CC: 1.0, pH: 7.4, TA: 80, CH: 425, CYA: 0), so I started to super-chlorinate the pool by raising the FC to 15.0ppm (10x CC plus some room for error). After complaints from unhappy patrons about the pool's closure and 2hrs without any change (still FC:15.0, CC: 1.0), I increased the FC to 30.0ppm to ensure that the process occurred as fast as possible.

    Fast forward to tonight, and the FC is 20.0 and CC, 1.5 (other chemicals the same)! How has the pool not reached breakpoint yet?!

    Help desperately needed. I'm considering just drain the pool as it seems the quicker solution atm.

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    bobodaclown's Avatar
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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    Just some basic questions is the pump/filter running while this is going on? What test kit are you using?
    Has anything changed in your procedures?
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    The breakpoint theory is not very good and we do not teach it. We teach the SLAM process.

    It is not uncommon for the CC to fluctuate and rise as stuff it broken down.
    That is a ridiculously high FC level with no CYA in the water and could be causing damage. Are you not able by code to use CYA?
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    pwrstrk's Avatar
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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    + 1 to what Jason said !!
    Jeff
    24'x54" AG Morada RTR (by wilbar) 13'500 gal. Hayward Powerflo Matrix 1hp 2 speed. Hayward Perflex EC65 DE filter.

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    Also, what kit are you using for tests?
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    It's an indoor pool, why would cya be needed?
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    pwrstrk's Avatar
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    Help, chloramines!

    CYA acts as a buffer for chlorine. It takes the harshness away from the chlorine. I would suggest a CYA level of 10-20 ppm for an indoor pool. I know we recommend CYA, for indoor pools.
    Jeff
    24'x54" AG Morada RTR (by wilbar) 13'500 gal. Hayward Powerflo Matrix 1hp 2 speed. Hayward Perflex EC65 DE filter.

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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    Quote Originally Posted by bobodaclown View Post
    Just some basic questions is the pump/filter running while this is going on? What test kit are you using?
    Has anything changed in your procedures?
    Filtration pump is running 24/7. The testkit is a Taylor 2000 series plus R-0870 and R-0971L. No recent change in procedures just a weekend with a high bather load. The pool is know to have poor circulation, but I have been manually stirring up the water occasionally to help out.

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle View Post
    The breakpoint theory is not very good and we do not teach it. We teach the SLAM process.

    It is not uncommon for the CC to fluctuate and rise as stuff it broken down.
    That is a ridiculously high FC level with no CYA in the water and could be causing damage. Are you not able by code to use CYA?
    I've read through your SLAM process. Is there any alterations for commercial pools to reduce the downtime?

    The CC hasn't really appeared to fluctuate. It's stayed pretty stabke at 1.0 all day yesterday and at 1.5 today. I'll be the first to admit that it is a ridiculously high chlorine level. The pool has been closed to bathers since yesterday morning. The pool is in Alabama, which means we have absolutely no codes to follow (we're outside of the few counties that have their own codes).

    - - - Updated - - -

    I agree with the use of low CYA levels for indoor pools, however we currently don't have any cyanuric acid stocked. Ultimately, I plan to start incorporating it into our pool chemistry, but I've got to wait until our budget can afford the additional chemical.

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    Richard320's Avatar
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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    Ouch! That must sting the eyes!

    Part of the problem is the fact that it's indoors. Without UV light, the CC doesn't break down and dissipate very fast. At this point it's about patience. Just let FC drop down to 10 or so before adding any more. That's the shock level for 0 CYA.
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    This forum is geared toward residential,, but I am sure someone can come up with something.

    With no CYA in the water, it is not safe for use until the FC gets below 4ppm I think ... personally I would want it below 2ppm or it is very harsh on skin, eyes, and suits.
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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    No, there is no alteration for downtime reduction. You have a different situation with a commercial pool and this is a prime example of why we can't always advise for commercial applications.

    You may have the option of water change, but many places do not, even for a commercial operation.

    They would have to wait on the CC and FC to come down. I don't think you have many options, but you took the FC pretty high there.

    I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the CC fall right in line with acceptable levels once the FC comes down. 20-30 PPM, especially un-buffered is a lot.
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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard320 View Post
    Ouch! That must sting the eyes!

    Part of the problem is the fact that it's indoors. Without UV light, the CC doesn't break down and dissipate very fast. At this point it's about patience. Just let FC drop down to 10 or so before adding any more. That's the shock level for 0 CYA.
    The sad thing is we have a fancy Hanovia UV system attached to the pool for this exact reason, but the system hasn't been serviced in 3 years and is unusable. Any PO to service the system has been denied by higher ups. Maybe having to wait out serval days for the CC to drop will help my case for repairing the system.

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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    May be...a drain is a big deal too I would think.
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    With indoor and public pools, having a supplemental UV or ozone is almost required to deal with the high loads. That is certainly your long term solution ... along with using some CYA to make the water nicer to be in.
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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    Your CC is likely to be slow-to-oxidize organics such as chlorourea. It doesn't smell and is not a problem until much higher levels, but unfortunately state regs don't distinguish between the different CCs. Also, with no CYA in the water, having high FC levels just makes it more likely to generate nitrogen trichloride from ammonia and urea and that DOES smell and is irritating.

    Without UV or ozone, you could try using non-chlorine shock (MPS) to see if it helps with the CC, but keep in mind that MPS itself registers as CC unless you use the Taylor K-2042 MPS interference remover for the FAS-DPD chlorine test.
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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    Giving it more time was the solution. CC dropped off rapidly last night, and I returned the FC to normal levels with sodium thiosulfate. This was my first time encountering CC that took that long to oxidize.

    To chem geek,
    Thanks for mentioning the K-2042. There is some MPS sitting back in storage that I might consider using at peak times of the season now that I know of a way to get accurate CC readings during it's use.

    I think my current goal will be to get some cyanuric acid ordered so that I can have a chlorine buffer on my pools.

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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    Just a heads up: If this is a public pool, you should check your local regulations before adding CYA. A few jurisdictions prohibit the use of CYA in public pools.
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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonLion View Post
    Just a heads up: If this is a public pool, you should check your local regulations before adding CYA. A few jurisdictions prohibit the use of CYA in public pools.
    No restrictions that I'm aware of. Alabama doesn't have any statewide regulations, and I'm not located in one of the few counties that have their own regulations. Thanks for the reminder though!

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    Re: Help, chloramines!

    Just note that while the use of a small amount of CYA will moderate chlorine's strength, you'll need a higher FC level than you are used to. So something like 4 ppm FC with 20 ppm CYA. Also, though the chlorine will oxidize skin, hair, swimsuits, etc. more slowly, it will also oxidize bather waste more slowly. This may result in CC but the type that isn't irritating -- that is, less nitrogen trichloride but more monochloramine or chlorourea. For an indoor pool with bather load, you really need some form of supplemental oxidiation and the ideal is UV. For outdoor pools the UV doesn't only help break down chloramines, but when it breaks down chlorine it produces hydroxyl radicals that are powerful oxidizers. Ozone is another option for supplemental oxidation. The non-chlorine shock (MPS) is dicey -- it works well in some situations and not in others.
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