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Thread: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

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    pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    This pool is pretty simple, nothing fancy 2 returns is all (no spas, infloor cleaning,etc) each return Y's off at the pump into 2. We eliminated the solar when we redid the roof so my pump head requirements have dropped a lot! my math shows (calculated the gallons a couple of ways) 15k gals max. turnover needed would be 31-32 gpm. avg head only 35 foot. 1.5 plumbing

    energy rate is around .10/kwh. Doing the match VS seems to have a long payback period for this and a 2 speed 3/4 pump seems a good compromise. The pump curves of the pentair superflo 3/4 2 speed SF-N2-3/4A , seem to match this pretty well. Does this sound about right? tough to find this pump online though it seems...a google doesn't bring it up all over the place.

    Also i want to go back to a sand filter (from cartridge), i've heard good things about zeosand. any suggestions there to match this combo?

    Thanks for any suggestions!
    1987 16k gallons IG, Marbletire Marquis, ,Pentair superflo 1hp, Hayward s244t, Chlorine (working on stenner setup)

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    First, realize there is no such thing as a required turn-over ... see pool-school/pump_run_time

    I am not sure what your experience/knowledge level is, but calculating the head is not trivial and is variable depending on flow rate. This information is just not really needed.

    With a basic pool with no high flow rate requirements, and with your cheap power, I think you have reached some good conclusions. A VS pump may never recoup the added initial cost over a 2-speed. Also that 3/4HP pump is hard to find, I might suggest getting the 1HP version as then it should be capable of running the solar if you ever add it again (this is the pump I have).

    Zeo sand gets very mixed reviews. Why do you want to change filter type?

    Add some more details about your pool so we can offer better suggestions: Is it IG or AG? What size is your current filter? Etc:
    Please add your pool details to your signature and location to your profile as described HERE as it will help us help you.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    Hi jblizzle, yes sorry for the lack of details. I updated my sig. IG quartz but it's over older plaster.

    Ok that's what i kind of thought, that 3/4 seemed a bit rare and i wondered if i should look at a 1 horse. I'll have to check on those.

    Correct on the runtime/turnover, and being in florida i typically vary the runtime quite a good bit between seasons, typically 6-8 hours in summer, full 8 during middle of the hot rainy summers, but in winter i kick it down quite a bit to 4 and seems to do quite well....very little chlorine usage in the winter. The pool is enclosed (bird cage so there's very little in the way of debris).

    I can't recall the cartridge size I had on there, the equipment was aged since the last redo 10-12 years ago, the pump housing split, motor had started overheating, and the pentair clean & clear filter was fiberglass and the sun was finally getting to it.

    Local pool supply had mentioned zeosand but i haven't read enough on it yet, i'll research that a bit more. My main complaint with the cartridge and this is my fault, when we had our 2 kids I couldn't keep up with things last few years. When the chems got out of wack in the middle of summers with daily deluges, if i had an algae outbreak with kids and such it's such a pain to find the time to clean the filter before,after running the pump 24 hours, i'd end up doing it several times just to be sure. Some of the problems may have been exasperated by the overheating old pump motor, i have no idea how long it was really running this summer i only noticed one day it cutting off (thermal limit), a check with amp probe showed it was using too many amps. When the pump split, instead of patching i just pulled it all out this time.

    I'm kinda wanting to avoid the cartridge cleaning routine and just put the cost of the filters up front in sand or de. But i dunno, cartridges are cheap up front, it's the long term filter cost and pain to clean repeatedly if there's a problem i don't like. Though when this goes back in service i may get a chem service so in that case i'd hope things stay better in check than i've been able to the last 2 years and that argument may no longer be valid.
    1987 16k gallons IG, Marbletire Marquis, ,Pentair superflo 1hp, Hayward s244t, Chlorine (working on stenner setup)

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    Well, you are right again in that if you get an algae outbreak ... cartridge filters can be a real pain since they clog so quickly. Sand is the easiest since it is easy to backwash, but they do not filter quite as well either so it can take longer to clear up. Of course, if you maintain the chemistry that we recommend (especially having adequate FC that is a function of CYA) then you would never get algae to begin with. I would highly suggest you continue reading and learning here and maintain the pool yourself ... it is almost a guarantee that with a good test kit and only a few minutes a day you can keep it clear for less money than a pool service will charge ... and they likly do not follow the TFPC methods.

    Many members here have large cartridge filters and by maintaining the chemistry, only clean the filter once a year ... and that is more out of a sense of duty than a requirement. So, if your cartridge was too small to begin with and coupled with algae outbreaks, I can see your reluctance.

    BTW, for you size pool, I would look for at least a 2.8sqft (23" diameter) sand filter. For a cartridge, you would probably want to be at least 250 sqft.

    The 1HP Superflo 2-speed might be cheaper than the 3/4HP if you can find it, and it will not cost too much more to run.

    One thing to confirm though. Is your current pump wired for 115V or 230V? Most 2-speed pumps are 230V, so be sure to check what you have or make sure you are able to rewire it if needed.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    Hi those are good things for me to think about and consider for sure, it has me thinking a bit more about my 'just get er done plan'.

    Yes i do admit waffling on spending the time to learn the chems better , this pool after redoing it stayed trouble free for probably 7-8 years i just kept tabs in the chlorine feeder and shocked. That's it. However...i know I overfed and underfed many if not most of the time, and wasted a lot in chems the last year or 2 not knowing what i was doing while things were out of control and no doubt a lot of the earlier years stuff led up to buildups of other chem situations. Compounded with not getting a correct kit or going to the pool store to get my water tested. i've thought many a time i should just get a good test kit so i could do it myself more accurately when i know i'm not going to run down to the store for testing until it's too late.

    Last couple of years though i've done a lot of damage myself. That i know is from exasperation and adjusting to the less time i have now with 2 new kids and i'm just now getting caught up =). So i'm basically starting from scratch and going do i waste money pawning some of this off or learn to do it right myself. I generally lean towards learning it myself and can see here i'm reaching for a solution but wanting to quickly wipe my hands clean. Doing it myself as i have i know i've wasted as much money as it would cost me for a chem service, (not quite that bad but you get the point). But i know also if i learned correctly i could save and have better quality water. You've convinced me i should slow down and read more around here. I have a separate hot tub i've been wanting to test better as well.

    Also after a bit of thought now's the time to slow down and think a bit clearer..hot tub warm, too cold to swim and i have a few months to get my ducks in a row on the pool.

    With the 115v220, the subpanel is 115v now but i preburied conduit 10 years ago in case i needed to run a 220 line, thanks for the info there, had read it but slipped my mind.

    I appreciate the insight!
    1987 16k gallons IG, Marbletire Marquis, ,Pentair superflo 1hp, Hayward s244t, Chlorine (working on stenner setup)

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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    I've just read over the test kit and TFPC faq, it really has me thinking.

    I'm going to read over the liquidator threads, that has really sparked my interest as i've been wanting to move away from tabs...i know the problem i had the last few years was surely compounded by the heavy use of those over time. first 7-8 years i never had any problems with just the tab feeder nor algae outbreaks either. I had searched for a liquid feeding solution before but never ran into this. Daily summer rains are brutal here to keep up with the chlorine, that's when i've always had problems, that combined with the sun. Though that was surely compounded as well by not properly testing.

    My reasoning this go round for a chem service was i know I prefer to go liquid, I roughly understand it eventually causes a build up of certain things over time and i suspect that was a problem too along with letting things go when the kids came. But i can't keep up with the liquid chlorination by going down to the store weekly..which during the summer i'm sure would require a few trips a month. I have to keep it on hand. my lack of understanding of that kept me on tabs. But a combination of the tf-100 test kit and a liquid chlorine feeder may be the ticket here and ( i need to reread the faq more) using bleach or supplementing it with the higher chlorine content at the store during heavy periods.

    If i can keep that in check, like you mention a cartridge shouldn't be as big of a hassle as I let it become. Think we got the pump close, i just need to investigate my 220 more. The filter i'm still thinking. I'm a bit surprised you mention 250 sq feet for a cartridge, i have no idea which size i had (i wish i hadn't tossed it now but i know it was a clean and clear) and going by the vertical clearance here...

    http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/clean-clear-DS.pdf

    I had either the cc 50 or cc75 meets turnover and flow rate, but is no where close to 250 sq feet of cartridge. Am i misunderstanding something?

    Anyways i'll do more reading.
    1987 16k gallons IG, Marbletire Marquis, ,Pentair superflo 1hp, Hayward s244t, Chlorine (working on stenner setup)

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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    You have plenty of time to learn over the winter.

    Rain really does not affect the chlorine demand very much. Your problem was likely that your FC level was always too low for the high CYA level that resulted from the user of all the tablets. Using liquid chlorine will not build up anything bad, it adds some salt, but the levels stay lower than needed for a SWG. Likely you stayed relatively clear for that many years due to the amount of rain diluting the CYA. Many other locations are lucky to get 2-3 years before problems start. Although that said, I doubt your pool was well balanced for those 7 years.

    For cartridges there really is no such thing as too big. The bigger they are the better they filter and the longer between cleanings. That recommendation is meant to be more "trouble free". Especially since you not winterize down there. You could get by smaller, but the cost difference may not be too much. I think the experts have been mulling over the typical filter sizing, so let me see if their new thoughts would change that recommendation and get back to you.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    Yeah no doubt it wasn't well balanced, i test stripped tested regularly but that's about it. And i pretty much assumed (knowing only the rough definition of CYA) that it was just extremely out of wack...chlorine was doing nothing. At some point 2 years ago or so I couldn't keep the mustard algae from reappearing no matter how much i chlorinated, shocked, or put the algaecide in. At that point i was cleaning the filter like crazy for weeks in an attempt to clear everything out (wrongly..just throwing stuff against the wall), it would clear up with that and lots of hours of filtering, but that would only last a few weeks. This last year it got really out of wack and even doing what i had done the previous year I couldn't keep it in check. At that point the equipment was getting long in the tooth, and everything just sort of went in series. motor over heating, pump casing split, quartz surface deteriorating visibly faster...so i just decided to drain and tackle this another time.

    Sounds very poor i know, it was compounded by my 2nd child barely sleeping for 2 years =) so I really let things go. Sleeps like a log now!

    I still have to eval the plaster while i decide on the equipment. I know it's going to need to be replastered but think I can buy a year or 2 maybe. Problem is I know that's going to be very expensive. It's a diamondbrite "type" quartz replaster over the original plaster so i assume this may mean having remove everything down to the shell..not sure if it makes sense going another layer over? how many times can they do this as long as the original plaster is still bonded?

    I've tapped out the entire shell and there's only 2 couple square foot spots where it's not adhered ...sounding the rest out all looks well bonded. There's certainly some rough spots, and some greenish type haze to the plaster (maybe that was from the old solar it had copper, and i know i used algacide like crazy last few years) but no concrete showing through. I may post some pics in another thread to see what the opinions are, i was planning on pingging a few local guys at some point here soon (that may be time consuming or a long shot, most i've contacted so far only do replaster or servicing).
    1987 16k gallons IG, Marbletire Marquis, ,Pentair superflo 1hp, Hayward s244t, Chlorine (working on stenner setup)

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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    Regarding the filter sizing, it is far from definitive. There are really 2 considerations ... the flow rate you will see from your pump and the debris load / size of your pool.

    Given that you have a smaller pump, I would think the minimum cartridge to consider would be 125 sqft as far as the flow rate is concerned. But, since your pool is always open, you may want to look for something up to around 225+ sqft to reduce frequency of cleaning and improve the filtration. The only down side to going bigger is the initial cost and the cartridge replacement costs (although you should not need them for years).

    For sand, I would stay around the 23" diameter I previously suggested.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    Thanks for the advice, it's been quite helpful. I'll post back as things progress as I prepare to reopen this thing. I want to spend more time reading up on the chem faq more, and read up on the liquidator forum more...I think i can do this correctly. I've known this for years but never taken the time, clearly i need to learn the chems correctly. Unfortunately it give's me a deja vu feeling when i think back over the years and problems, all along you know what you *should* have learned to do but kept putting it off or had some excuse, and in the end it cost you more trouble and time and money because of it....and now it's time to pay the piper.
    1987 16k gallons IG, Marbletire Marquis, ,Pentair superflo 1hp, Hayward s244t, Chlorine (working on stenner setup)

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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    Hi again!

    Well it's been a bit, I decided to have the pool replastered (http://www.troublefreepool.com/threa...regate)...kids are only young once
    and after I did a few test acid washes it did get rid of a good bit of the scaling and green (i suppose from algacide or the old solar which had some copper in it i think) I just couldn't get myself to ignore the rough spots...so decided to replaster before refilling.

    The plaster guy has a good bit of experience i'm not worried about that (going to get another quote anyways) but I'm a bit untrusting of his pump recommendations. Actually i didn't like the setup the last guy did 10 years ago, it was overpowered.

    He's telling me a 2 speed (if i went with the pentair 110 2 speed 1hp but i may rewire for 220v) would have to run 24 hours a day on low speed. I just don't believe that when doing the math based on pentair specs.

    The pool is 15k gals or so, turnover needed would be 31-32 gpm. avg head only 35 foot. 1.5 plumbing. Assuming my math on capacity is way off i'll base it on 16k gallons. pentairs 110 2 speed pump turns over the water in 13 hours even based on only 20gpm flow

    http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/whisperDS.pdf

    so...

    16k gallons /(20gpm*60=1200gph)=13.3 hours. Assuming 4.7 amps that's 7-8 kwh / day


    looking at a 1 horse specs http://www.pentairpool.com/products/...-pumps-165.htm

    single speed 1 horse (assuming maximum draw, which i assume if it's sized right doesn't draw max amps)

    16k gallons (44gpm max flow of 1.5 pipe*60=2640gph)=6-7 hour turnover. At 14 amps.. that's 11-12 kwh / day


    Then he mentioned that a 1hp pump really doesn't move anything and i should move up. Only when i do the math that doesn't make much sense. Maybe he's thinking i'll use a pool cleaner...but i'm planning on using suction since i'm screened in or manual cleaning again (the polaris i have that doesn't need a booster was always marginal and bit of pain as my kids always want to remove it). Surely i can clean on 1hp pump (even on high speed of a 2 speed pump).

    Does my math make sense here? I was going to have him install all the equipment but i'm thinking maybe i should do this part.

    Thanks for the suggestions!
    1987 16k gallons IG, Marbletire Marquis, ,Pentair superflo 1hp, Hayward s244t, Chlorine (working on stenner setup)

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    Turn over is meaningless. Read the article in Pool School about How To determine pump run time.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    Thanks, yep i read that.

    I went with a pentair 1 horse single speed and 24" sand filter. 2 speed would have been a bit better but it's not a huge savings for my pool. I may experiment with that later.

    Now i have to really readup on all of the pool school chem and test kit sections again before the plastering so i'll be educated by then.
    1987 16k gallons IG, Marbletire Marquis, ,Pentair superflo 1hp, Hayward s244t, Chlorine (working on stenner setup)

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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    Filled tonight! all up and running.

    I'm freaking out a bit though, my kids just are too excited to almost be back in action...while i was hooking up the equipment, they had some dirt
    on their feet and couldn't help themselves sneaking over to walk on the steps while the pool was filling (water hadn't made it to the steps yet).

    I've now got pretty noticeable dirt stains on the steps that is not brushing off....

    think there's anything i can do there or maybe it will go away when i begin chlorinating in a week?

    - - - Updated - - -

    just to clarify. the stains got on 1 day old marcite while i was filling and the steps were dry.
    1987 16k gallons IG, Marbletire Marquis, ,Pentair superflo 1hp, Hayward s244t, Chlorine (working on stenner setup)

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    Re: pump and filter suggestion, does this sound right?

    Hi, you can ignore this =)
    i asked again on http://www.troublefreepool.com/threa...722#post628722

    but it's lightening up a good bit now that the sun is out, i think the stains will go away in a week or so especially when chlorination starts, about only thing
    visable now is 2 foot dirt spots from foot prints.

    thanks! sorry just freakin out a bit!
    1987 16k gallons IG, Marbletire Marquis, ,Pentair superflo 1hp, Hayward s244t, Chlorine (working on stenner setup)

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