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Thread: Sequestrant or not

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    Sequestrant or not

    I would highly recommend a metal sequesterant, for $15 its a good spend considering the staining that can occur.
    Note in my area, we have alot of metals in our water, I use this product at closing and opening.

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    Re: Closing pool chems for BBB

    I would highly recommend a metal sequesterant, for $15 its a good spend considering the staining that can occur.
    Not if you have a pool with no metals in it to begin with.....and most don't.
    Dave S.
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    Re: Closing pool chems for BBB

    Seems to me, its worth it, I and others have had metal staining and its no fun with all your whites going brown.

    I add it as a security blanket, the lil bit its worth, is sure worth the pita that can result when metals come out of suspension. Pool stores suggest it, because of what can result if chlorine levels get high and force metals out. Its easy here to just say dont use it, but I would add few on here would have tests that could show if metals were present in their water. Love the site, but some of the so called experts on here have lil experience when these problems occur, so they tow the TFP line. The rhetoric of always pointing fingers at pool store grows old fast.

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    Re: Closing pool chems for BBB

    Only if you have metals! There is no need to just wantonly put anything in your pool that isn't absolutely needed. If you do and it helps you out that is fantastic, but we don't suggest adding anything you don't have too.
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    Re: Closing pool chems for BBB

    1. generally speaking, chlorine does not force metals from their soluble state....high pH does.

    2.
    but some of the so called experts on here have lil experience when these problems occur, so they tow the TFP line
    There is no "TFP line". We teach you to manage your own pool in the best way that works for you. There are certainly "time and time again" instances that lead us to suggest certain proven things......I would be hard pressed to call that the TFP "line".

    3.
    The rhetoric of always pointing fingers at pool store grows old fast.
    Really? It strikes me that you have a lot of posts here but maybe haven't been reading and learning as much as I would hope.

    Do you think we are making up this stuff about pool stores? This forum has a pretty healthy dose of skepticism when it comes to pool store advice and testing. It is a direct result of the THOUSANDS of posts you will find here that reinforce and have developed that position. I can assure you we didn't start by mistrusting pool stores......that is a learned experience.

    Being a bit repetitive, this forum teaches a simple yet very effective method for managing your pool. What you do with what we teach is entirely up to you....in fact, it's what we want you to do....manage your own pool.

    You should not anticipate the advice here about pool stores and other subjects will change much. If what we teach "grows old fast" for you, you probably shouldn't read it because you will see it again.
    Dave S.
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    Re: Closing pool chems for BBB

    High chlorine wont force metals out of suspension???

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    Re: Closing pool chems for BBB

    High chlorine wont force metals out of suspension???
    No. When you make a large chlorine dosage, the pH is temporarily elevated in your pool but then returns to it's previous value.

    That temporary elevated pH may cause metals (if you have them to begin with) to move to a solid state but it is the elevated pH that causes the precip......not simply adding chlorine.

    Once the pH returns to it's previous value, the metals will usually go back into suspension.
    Dave S.
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    Re: Closing pool chems for BBB

    and the resulting staining from the metals has to be then treated.

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    Re: Closing pool chems for BBB

    and the resulting staining from the metals has to be then treated.
    Well, once again, not always. Not infrequently, the solid (typically) iron particles will stay "floating" in the water and will be caught in the filter and then flushed out of the system.....thereby reducing the total iron content in your pool. Therefore, the next time you dose an identical amount of chlorine, the iron may not precipitate because there is much less of it.

    If someone ever devises a method by which they can predictably precipitate metals but in a way so they never "stick" to your pool surfaces, that will be a rich someone.
    Dave S.
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    Re: Closing pool chems for BBB

    Just my point, 15 bucks worth of metal sequestrant is a cheap insurance policy against metal staining occuring during winter freeze up. Why are we arguing over 15 bucks, I just dont see it. I can tell you, that removal of metal staining is certainly going to cost you more then 15 bucks. Yes, that is experience talking.

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    Re: Closing pool chems for BBB

    Quote Originally Posted by pooladdict
    Just my point, 15 bucks worth of metal sequestrant is a cheap insurance policy against metal staining occuring during winter freeze up. Why are we arguing over 15 bucks, I just dont see it. I can tell you, that removal of metal staining is certainly going to cost you more then 15 bucks. Yes, that is experience talking.
    I'm not arguing over the 15 Dollars and my recommendation wouldn't change if it were 15 cents. My point is that I do not want anything in my pool that does not have to be there, and I won't suggest otherwise to anyone. I don't like the idea of friends, family, or myself absorbing, injesting, or swimming in anything extra, no matter how safe or harmless it is supposed to be. Honestly, I get exposed to enough chemicals in my industry to make up for it so any less is always a good thing.

    I tow no line as a "so called" expert here. My personal theory happens to agree with the forum on adding chemicals to pool water in general, and often very specifically. In my profession, we are very careful and stringent about what we put in water systems, often because there are hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars riding on those additions. Perhaps most importantly because there is a very specific need and reason we put in a given product. That theory carries over to pools for me because it makes sense, and it is the correct and common sense approach. People often just throw things in their pool having no idea of what it is, or what the results of that addition will be. Often this advice is given by someoene who never managed a pool or any chemical treatment program of any kind.

    We don't just have anecdotal evidence here and there about pool stores either. Thousands of people have come here seeking advice after years of following their suggestions and winding up with serious problems the store can't figure out. This is often after those stores have exhausted their financial resources to the point a customer will no longer tolerate. We see it time and again, so it is quite a lot more than just unwarranted skepticism on our part. Often we see advice that is flat out wrong, or they make statements out of ignorance, poor training, uncluding outright dishonesty. I've had the experience from them first hand in more than one of these scenarios, and it is precisely why I don't patronize the pool stores anymore.
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    Re: Sequestrant or not

    Valid points, however...I would like to see water tests on your area showing no metals in your water, there are countless posts in here about metal staining...and the resulting work needed to get things white again...I think we should recommend a metal sequesterant. Remember, this site is for everyone, and not all areas have metal free waters. Eastern Canada, and I assume North Eastern Maine, has a lot of metals in our water. I do not see why you are so set against it, yet have no experience with staining, so how is it you can have an opinion on it. Do not get me started on what is in our City waters.

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    Re: Sequestrant or not

    In the majority of cases metals in your water comes only from well water. Seldom does municipal water sources contain enough metals to cause issues as they're heavily regulated and required by law to put out yearly test results to all users.

    As for suggesting to add a metal sequesterant, why would we?? If we wanted to make sure 100% of all pools had zero metals in them, we'd start recommending a GreenSand Filter. This with the proper media will take care of the majority of all metals in your water. Again, why would we do that?? The majority of water does not have enough metals in it to stain, and even if it were high in metals as long as you keep the PH in check the chances of staining is low. The pool I maintain used to get filled from a well with VERY high iron content. If you were to pour a glass of water, it's almost like a watered down glass of tea. Not once did we ever use sequesterant. Is the pool covered in rust stains......nope. Can't find one. Do we now truck in water from the local water plant......yep. Makes our lives 100% easier.

    For pools that MUST use water known to have high metal content, then sure......a product to help remove metals could be a good investment. It could also not work at all. Very easily the user could dump in a $15 bottle and have very little luck removing any metals. Same goes for Floc. Does it work......sometimes. Does it always work......nope. Is it always needed.......nope.

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    Re: Sequestrant or not

    Glad you have metal free water, my point was missed by you, high chlorine and high ph can cause metals to come out of suspension, when that happens, staining can result. Look at the countless posts on metal staining, its clear its an issue for a lot of people. We recommend a lot of chlorine to battle cloudy/green pools, you dont think that wont cause some issues with metals in water? Sequesterant is WAY cheaper then trying to battle staining of steps, eschutions, skimmer covers, weirs...etc etc. It is not a waste to put it in. Why so adamantly against it?

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    Re: Sequestrant or not

    Quote Originally Posted by pooladdict
    It is not a waste to put it in. Why so adamantly against it?
    Because you don't always need it, and often it doesn't work.

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    Re: Sequestrant or not

    UNCLE

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    Re: Sequestrant or not

    Again, don't get me wrong. If you were to post with the scenario that you have very high metal content and no other source of water, then ya a product to assist in sequestering metals is a good investment. The majority of people however don't fall into this case, and it occurs way to seldom for us to recommend all users use the product.

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    Re: Sequestrant or not

    Sorry, but I would love to see how many out here have issues with staining of the items I mentioned. Surely you have seen all the posts on metal staining and subsequent AA treatments following. To blatantly put it in the "NEVER NEEDED" category is misinformation. There is enough of that in some pool stores, this surely isnt a place for that.

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    Re: Sequestrant or not

    The bottom line is that one can have the water tested for metals, especially if they are on a well, and if it's high in metals (iron, usually), they can use a metal sequestrant for insurance as you say. If one is on a municipal supply that doesn't have metals or has tested their well water and it doesn't have metals, then there's no need to use a metal sequestrant. Again, we try and avoid adding anything to the pool that is not required.

    My fill water is from a municipal water supply and their water report shows virtually no iron (or copper) so I don't add metal sequestrant and don't get metal staining. Well, I still have a lingering rust problem on some stainless steel mounts that was caused from Trichlor pucks 10 years ago when we first put in a pool, but that doesn't count. Nevertheless, that rust is solid and doesn't re-stain so I don't use a metal sequestrant.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
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    Re: Sequestrant or not

    Quote Originally Posted by pooladdict
    Valid points, however...I would like to see water tests on your area showing no metals in your water,
    Would you? I'd be glad to let you pay for a full set done in a professional lab if you desire. Otherwise you'll have to take my word for it. I've tested my well, and there is no metal.
    Quote Originally Posted by pooladdict
    I think we should recommend a metal sequesterant.
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it won't agree with the basic philosophy here about only adding what you need to
    and nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by pooladdict
    Remember, this site is for everyone, and not all areas have metal free waters.
    Precisely, not all places are the same, and that is the exact reason there is no blanket suggestion for sequestrants. Not everyone needs it.
    Quote Originally Posted by pooladdict
    Eastern Canada, and I assume North Eastern Maine, has a lot of metals in our water. I do not see why you are so set against it, yet have no experience with staining, so how is it you can have an opinion on it.
    You can't and shouldn't assume any water has metals in it or not. I am only against it where it is not needed. I made my point extremely well and very clear. I cannot think of a simpler way to explain my position. I don't need to have metal in my water to have an opinion on adding or not adding a given product.

    I've said about all I can to make my point. It's your pool to do with as you wish, but it is not for everyone.
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