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Thread: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

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    Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    See vitals in the sig, pipes I see come out of the ground seems to match the pipe fittings on all the pool equipment, so I don't think there's anything out of the ordinary there, probably standard size whatever that is?

    Now that it's winter -- I'm noticing about 25% of my electric bill is the pool pump. I only pay 10-12 cents per kwh, so take that into account, but I'm wondering if it's not time to retire the old pump. Our rebate program only runs until 4/30/13 for sure, $150 here in Scottsdale Arizona/SRP. I typically run the filter 8 hours in the summer, running 6 hours right now.

    I've seen all three of these Hayward VSP pumps (2300/2600/3400) online, each more expensive than the next. But... is there really any difference between them in terms of electrical savings? I can see the 3400 is a step up in tech, but from what I understand I could control the earlier models in the same way by adding a different automation control or even a Hayward one later? The 1 HP motor is more than adequate to vacuum the pool as well as run the waterfall; I'd say 3/4HP would be plenty but that's just a guess really.

    The guy at the pool store recommended Hayward over Pentair, I'm a fan of the magnet and the sealed tech, as well as the auto shutoff in case there's no water being pumped. Those are nice features I would think, plus it's a little cheaper? If there are better choices let me know.

    Thanks for your help!
    ~20k Gal IG PebbleTec, Waterfall
    208v/3450RPM/1HP/1.65SF Whisperflo Pump
    S244T Hayward Sand Filter, 3.14ft^3, 62 GPM

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Welcome to TFP!!!

    Any reason you are only looking at Hayward?
    The 2300 (Max-flo) and 2600 (Superpump) are smaller VS pumps and similar to each other. The 3400 is the big real deal VS Ecostar.
    The more water you move the higher the electrical cost. So, the smaller VS pumps will be cheaper to run ... BUT ... the smaller ones are NOT controllable by any automation systems and have simple built-in controls (unlike the EcoStar that could be integrated into automation and has more complex speed and time controls built-in). The smaller ones are designed to be easy drop-in retrofits.

    The other option, and likely cheaper, would be to just replace your motor with a 2-speed motor. Running on low will save a lot of electrical costs and you can just kick it up to high speed to vacuum or run the waterfall. This can be controlled by a manual switch or a simple timer or can integrate into ANY automation system. One advantage of this in my case is I have solar and the controller will automatically increase the pump to high speed when solar is needed and stays at low speed when solar is not ... this is not possible with the smaller Hayward VS pumps, but would be possible with the EcoStar.

    So, it kind of depends on where you see your system going in the future. You power is relatively cheap, so even with the $150 rebate, it would likely still be cheaper over the life of the motor to just get a new 2-speed motor instead of the expensive EcoStar. If you do not care about automation, then the smaller VS pumps are a consideration, but I think it would still be cheaper to get a 2-speed motor only.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Welcome to tfp, mwl001

    Jbliz beat me, but here are my comments...

    The whisperflo you have moves quite a bit of water. Neither Hayward 2300, or 2600 will move as much water at the same head pressure. If you are okay with reduced flow to the waterfall then you could probably use one of them, otherwise the Hayward 3400 or Pentair intelleflo are you best choices for vs pumps.

    You could also consider replacing your current motor with a 2-speed and only run on high when cleaning or when the waterfall is on...this is probably by far you most economical option.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle
    Welcome to TFP!!!

    Any reason you are only looking at Hayward?
    The 2300 (Max-flo) and 2600 (Superpump) are smaller VS pumps and similar to each other. The 3400 is the big real deal VS Ecostar.
    The more water you move the higher the electrical cost. So, the smaller VS pumps will be cheaper to run ... BUT ... the smaller ones are NOT controllable by any automation systems and have simple built-in controls (unlike the EcoStar that could be integrated into automation and has more complex speed and time controls built-in). The smaller ones are designed to be easy drop-in retrofits.

    The other option, and likely cheaper, would be to just replace your motor with a 2-speed motor. Running on low will save a lot of electrical costs and you can just kick it up to high speed to vacuum or run the waterfall. This can be controlled by a manual switch or a simple timer or can integrate into ANY automation system. One advantage of this in my case is I have solar and the controller will automatically increase the pump to high speed when solar is needed and stays at low speed when solar is not ... this is not possible with the smaller Hayward VS pumps, but would be possible with the EcoStar.

    So, it kind of depends on where you see your system going in the future. You power is relatively cheap, so even with the $150 rebate, it would likely still be cheaper over the life of the motor to just get a new 2-speed motor instead of the expensive EcoStar. If you do not care about automation, then the smaller VS pumps are a consideration, but I think it would still be cheaper to get a 2-speed motor only.
    Was looking at Hayward because I was under the impression they were the only ones with permanent magnets and TEFC. Can you get a 2-speed with those features? Or a Pentair, Variable or 2 speed? And what's the deal with this brochure? Trying to upsell folks?

    http://www.cbpools.net/thetruthabout2speedpumps.pdf

    Thanks for your speedy replies, BTW.
    ~20k Gal IG PebbleTec, Waterfall
    208v/3450RPM/1HP/1.65SF Whisperflo Pump
    S244T Hayward Sand Filter, 3.14ft^3, 62 GPM

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    That article is garbage. Ok, a little harsh but they are trying to sell you a VS pump so what would you expect. Their economics are biased towards a VS pump.

    But the truth is that a two speed pump will save nearly as much money as a VS and for some people could possibly have a lower lifetime cost than a VS pump because of the larger up front cost of a VS pump. The smaller Haywards (2300/2600) are a good deal and make the cost trade off more compelling although as was mentioned earlier have some drawbacks with control.

    But nearly all VS pumps have permanent magnets including the Pentair Intelliflo/IntelliPro series of pumps. There are only a few which use inductive motors and most are not being sold anymore.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    That article is very compelling.

    What they are not telling you though, is their claims are based upon a mathematical model that most of our pools cannot come close to in reality.
    Those models are designed by hydraulic engineers and consider all of the things in the link of Hydraulics 101 in Mas985 sig.
    (btw, nice job with that Mas, very impressive).

    Another thing they aren't telling you in that article, is that to have all of the benefits and programming available in a VS, then you have to buy an expensive controller to access them. Without the expensive controller, you have 4 speeds available.
    Another wheelbarrow full of money and those controllers are expensive to fix when they break down too ....

    I got a intelliflo. I love it too, but not because it saves me any money. It's awesome..... and I can probably put out a house fire across the street with that thang if I had to! It Rocks!

    cheers
    Divin Dave,
    IG Vinyl, 15' x 30', 3 1/2' - 6' deep, Oval, ~15K gal, Intelliclor IC40, Intelliflo VS pump, Clean and Clear 420 Filter, auto-fill-disabled, Retrofit LED Color Light, Dolphin Nautilus Robot, TF100 Test Kit, Taylor K1766 Salt Test Kit, Tftestkit Pressure Gauge.
    www.tftestkits.net Experience- it's what's learned just after you needed it most !!

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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Thanks everyone. Luckily the pump doesn't need to run much this time of year, so I don't need to be in a huge hurry, I'll just try to make a decision before April. So is there somewhere I can calculate a more realistic cost savings? Maybe try to figure out the advantage of a VS vs a 2-speed? What 2-speed pumps are recommended, if I go that route? Keep in mind I found a 3400VSP online for $888 not including $150 rebate.

    What a great message board.
    ~20k Gal IG PebbleTec, Waterfall
    208v/3450RPM/1HP/1.65SF Whisperflo Pump
    S244T Hayward Sand Filter, 3.14ft^3, 62 GPM

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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    This is a spreadsheet in my signature that can help.
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Quote Originally Posted by mas985
    This is a spreadsheet in my signature that can help.
    I was going to post that yesterday, but when I tried to access the spreadsheet, I got the 403 "no access" error.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Hmm ... just saw the same thing ... looks like the Pool Pump one is missing (bad link)
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
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    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Try it again: Pool Tools
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Works now.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Works now for me too
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Seems like figuring out the final answer (2 speed vs variable) depends on me knowing whether or not the calibrated speeds of the variable pump will fall low enough below the set speeds of the 2 speed to justify the cost savings -- in other words, the lower I can run the variable below the set speeds of the 2 speed pump, the quicker it pays itself off. If that's true, should I try to measure all of the piping lengths/widths in my system? Or would it be more accurate to have someone come out and "size" the plumbing and measure it? Without that, it seems like I'd just be guessing and it would be smarter to err on the side of the more flexible product, since both would save me money.
    ~20k Gal IG PebbleTec, Waterfall
    208v/3450RPM/1HP/1.65SF Whisperflo Pump
    S244T Hayward Sand Filter, 3.14ft^3, 62 GPM

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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Quote Originally Posted by mwl001
    The guy at the pool store recommended Hayward over Pentair, I'm a fan of the magnet and the sealed tech, as well as the auto shutoff in case there's no water being pumped. Those are nice features I would think, plus it's a little cheaper? If there are better choices let me know.

    Thanks for your help!
    FWIW, Pentair has these features too. Not trying to sway you though, just information.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    You are thinking too much. It is not that easy to calculate head loss, I would not bother.

    Why do you think you would not be able to run the VS pump down around 1000rpm? That is the speed at which the Intelliflo is most efficient and thus will save you the most electricity. BUT, that is an expensive pump and it appears that you do not have a need for the high flow it is capable of. For that matter, the Whisperflo you have is likely larger than you need.

    With your cheap power, I would either just buy a 2-speed motor for the pump you have or buy a smaller Superflo 1HP 2-speed. I think it will take you MANY years for the large VS pump to save enough electricity to offset the higher cost.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
    If you found TFP helpful and we saved you money ... Become a TFP Supporter!

  17. Back To Top    #17
    mas985's Avatar
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    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Quote Originally Posted by mwl001
    Seems like figuring out the final answer (2 speed vs variable) depends on me knowing whether or not the calibrated speeds of the variable pump will fall low enough below the set speeds of the 2 speed to justify the cost savings -- in other words, the lower I can run the variable below the set speeds of the 2 speed pump, the quicker it pays itself off. If that's true, should I try to measure all of the piping lengths/widths in my system? Or would it be more accurate to have someone come out and "size" the plumbing and measure it? Without that, it seems like I'd just be guessing and it would be smarter to err on the side of the more flexible product, since both would save me money.
    There is no need to make it so complicated and as it turns out, plumbing is a secondary factor.

    There are four primary factors that determine the "break even" point:

    Pump Energy Consumption
    Pump Cost
    Energy Cost per KWH
    Pump Run time

    It is a common misconception that pump run time should be based upon the turnover rate of the pool but nothing could be further from the truth. Read this article: pool-school/pump_run_time. The fact is most people run their pumps way too long and can reduce energy costs just by shortening run time without much of impact on water quality. Shortening run time makes the pay off time longer for both two speeds and VS pumps.

    Have you had a chance to look at the spreadsheet yet?
    Mark
    Hydraulics 101; Pump Ed 101; Pump/Pool Spreadsheets; Pump Run Time Study; DIY Acid Dosing; DIY Cover Roller
    18'x36' 20k plaster, MaxFlo SP2303VSP, Aqualogic PS8 SWCG, 420 sq-ft Cartridge, Solar, 6 jet spa, 1 HP jet pump, 400k BTU NG Heater

  18. Back To Top    #18

    Re: Variable Speed Pump -- Hayward 2300/2600/3400?

    Quote Originally Posted by mwl001
    Thanks everyone. Luckily the pump doesn't need to run much this time of year, so I don't need to be in a huge hurry, I'll just try to make a decision before April. So is there somewhere I can calculate a more realistic cost savings? Maybe try to figure out the advantage of a VS vs a 2-speed? What 2-speed pumps are recommended, if I go that route? Keep in mind I found a 3400VSP online for $888 not including $150 rebate.

    What a great message board.
    Would you mind letting me know where you found the pump for that price? I am considering at the same one atm and this sounds like a great deal!

    Thanks in advance
    30-35K gal, IG plaster, 1hp single speed pump, 48 sqft DE-filter PAC-FAB NS-48 (96GPM flow rate), spa, currently no heater installed, Barracuda G2

    I am new to pools so please don't hesitate to give me advice and tips, both highly appreciated! Thanks!

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