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Thread: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit ground

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    steveg_nh's Avatar
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    Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit ground

    So maybe I'm way over thinking this, but it's bugging me...our pool deck will be completed in the spring. It will be a paver patio. My understanding is when they are doing this, they will extend the bonding wire around the whole pool, as far as the can out from the pool and bury it under the pavers. So in theory, I'll have a long ring around the whole pool. Well, Murphy's Law always applies to me it seems. When the pool builder goes to drill out all the anchor holes for the mesh winter safety cover, how does he avoid hitting the wire? I would imagine, with the number of anchors I have (straps every 3'), that his odds of hitting the ground wire are actually pretty good. If he severs it, that wouldn't be good.

    Do they not worry about it, or can they somehow "locate" the wire under the pavers? Or when the patio is being done, should I take some measurements of where the wire is so they can hopefully avoid it? I watched them install a cover this fall on my neighbors pool, and his company just started drilling away...and for the record, the anchors mount inside longer "tubes" since it's pavers, so they are longer than the standard 2" anchors..

    thanks.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    They could always run the bond wire a set distance from the edge of the pool and know not to drill there. If not, a "wire finder" is a fairly common device. Irrigation folks often have them as do other trades.
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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    The bonding loop is supposed to be buried 4" to 6" deep and 18" to 24" from the inside of the pool wall. Given that, I'd say that they can come pretty close to locating it and since the anchors will be farther than 2' from the pool edge they won't be in any danger of hitting the bonding loop.
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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    Ah, thanks. Looking at the ground wire, there definitely is some slack there, I assume so they can pull it away from the pool, and then bury it a bit...But since it's coiled up right now till spring, I wasn't sure how far out it would come, and if the anchors would be past that...I'll make sure I ask about it next fall, and in the spring when the install is being done on the patio.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    The bonding loop is supposed to be buried 4" to 6" deep and 18" to 24" from the inside of the pool wall. Given that, I'd say that they can come pretty close to locating it and since the anchors will be farther than 2' from the pool edge they won't be in any danger of hitting the bonding loop.

    IIRC, my anchors where intended to be about 18" from the pool edge.
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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    I believe the directions recommend 30" from the pool wall to the anchor. I could be wrong about that
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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    I have the papers. I'll check!
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    I'd like to point out that if we are talking a paver edge then you have to have a mesh grid (usually rebar) of 36 inches next to the pool, a #8 wire alone is not sufficient. So even if you hit part of it it won't destroy it.
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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    It is going to be pavers. There was debate with the electrical inspector for this when my neighbor did his. I though it was no mesh for pavers, only for poured concrete.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    Just talked to my neighbor. Electrical inspector said no mesh with pavers, mesh with poured concrete. Does that not sound right? They would know I imagine. At first, they made him put the mesh down, then the asst inspector told him to take it up for pavers. The main inspector said he wouldn't sign off without it. Talk about a cluster. So the two inspectors got together and determined the asst was right, no mesh for pavers.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    Mesh is for concrete that has no rebar (i. e. Fiber reinforced). Pavers, etc. just get a loop.
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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    Quote Originally Posted by Bama Rambler
    Mesh is for concrete that has no rebar (i. e. Fiber reinforced). Pavers, etc. just get a loop.
    Ok, good. That lines up with what they're doing around here...whew. So I just need to pay attention to the location of the loop. I would say my straps on my cover, right now (just in with 18" galv rods until spring) around about 24" from the pool wall, maybe a bit less.
    24'x40' 25k gal Imperial Mountain Pond IGP, full 28 mil VynAll Ocean Breakers liner. All Hayward system: 140k BTU HeatPro heat pump, 3/4HP single speed TriStar 2" Pump, DE6020 filter, AquaPlus Automation/Salt Chlorination, remote controls, ColorLogic 4.0 lighting. Polaris 280 w/PB4-60 BP. TF100 & K1766 test kits. Rinox Palazzo pavers and Spherik coping. Pool installed 9/2013, project completed 6/16/14.

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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    I'm going to respectfully disagree Pavers require a grid.

    To quote the code:

    "(2) Perimeter Surfaces. An equipotential bonding grid must extend 3 ft horizontally beyond the inside walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub, including unpaved, paved, and poured concrete surfaces."


    Why wouldn't you do it? A three ft rebar grid is not that expensive to install.
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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    Quote Originally Posted by gwegan
    I'm going to respectfully disagree Pavers require a grid.

    To quote the code:

    "(2) Perimeter Surfaces. An equipotential bonding grid must extend 3 ft horizontally beyond the inside walls of a pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub, including unpaved, paved, and poured concrete surfaces."


    Why wouldn't you do it? A three ft rebar grid is not that expensive to install.
    This is true, but it depends on what version of the NEC they are using. Older versions don't require it, but I'd put on in on a new install. it wont hurt anything.
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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    Some version of a grid has been required for at least 10 years now. I don't know about Mass but in California any work on a pool must be up to the current code, whether it requires a permit or not. California building inspectors look at bonding closely. We should all want to construct a properly bonded pool. While Bonding doesn't solve the stray voltage problem it does prevent injury s resulting from stray voltage fairly simply and and at a very reasonable cost. a re-bar grid under your paving surface next to the pool is cheap by any measure and except for the connections to the rest of the required bonding, takes little skill to install. If you have ever had a stray voltage problem you will appreciate bonding.
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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    Which version of the code did your quote come from. My newest version dosen't read like that.

    Rebar is the worst thing you could build a grid out of when it's not encapsulated in concrete. The steel will rust and passivate when in contact with the earth and that coating of oxide will block any current flow. If you're going to build a grid it needs to be out of bare copper.

    The copper grid is required for conductive pool shells where the rebar is encapsulated in a non-conductive compound (i.e. plastic coated rebar).

    Now, I'm not disagreeing that building a bonding grid under pavers is a good idea and it should be done, but that's not how the code reads.

    ummm; Maybe this part of the discussion should be moved to the deep end.
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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    Hi. I'm new here and a new pool owner. We had a gunite pool built this spring just northeast of Baltimore, MD. I was able to purchase a safety cover direct from the manufacturer and install myself to save a couple thousand dollars. The cover arrived this week and I'm installing it tomorrow in prep for pool closing this week. I was searching on what to do when you hit rebar but hadn't thought about the equipotential bonding grid. I think the rebar is part of the grid? We have concrete deck.

    So a couple questions, which I think are appropriate as part of this thread:

    1) The brass insets are 1-5/8" yet the directions (and what I've read online) says to drill 3" deep. What's the rationale here? To let any water drain through the bottom? I'm guessing water that gets under the inset that freezes and heaves could pop the inset, but if the hole is only 1/8" to 1/4" deeper, it doesn't seem like enough water to cause havoc. And holes less than 2" deep would be less likely to hit rebar?

    2) What happens when you hit rebar? I'm guessing the masonry bit will kick. I have a steel bit to swap out to drill through the rebar. Is that common?

    Thanks!
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    Re: Installing anchors for winter cover, how to not hit grou

    Im in MD, our code in my county simply used the pool walls as the grid. Bonding wire was run the entire perimeter of the pool in a continuous loop roughly 24 - 30 inches away from the pool. Bonding lugs were attached to the pool walls at equal points around the pool and attached to the bonding loop.
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