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Thread: Variations in commercial analysis

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    Variations in commercial analysis

    We recently had a pool installed in our backyard and the builder stated that we needed to bring a water sample by their office once a week for the first four weeks for (free) analysis. As I had already found this site and purchased a TF100 Test Kit prior to the completion of construction, I was interested in any deltas between their numbers and my own. The builder was using the BioGuard Accu-Scan system, but has recently switched to the newer BioGuard scanning system that does not use any strips.

    To make things really interesting, I also had Leslie's Pool Supply test the water as well. All tests came from the same bottle of water.

    • Test . . TF100 . . BioGuard . . Leslie's
      FC . . . . 3.5 . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 4
      CC . . . . . 0 . . . . . . 0 . . . . . . 0
      TC . . . . 3.5 . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . 4

      TA . . . 140 . . . . . 152 . . . . . 130
      CH . . . 180 . . . . . 182 . . . . . 150
      CYA . . . 70 . . . . . 120 . . . . . 50
      pH . . . 7.8 . . . . . 8.4 . . . . . . 8.0
      T . . . . 76° . . . . . 76° . . . . . 76°

    Obviously my pH was too high and I have since fixed that (pH = 7.2). But what concerns me most is the variation in the CYA levels as the only way to lower this number is by drain/refill. The measured CYA levels have been constant for both the TF100 and BioGuard for the past 3 weeks. While I am technically a 'newbie' at this, I am not totally ignorant about all this as my degrees are in Chemistry. I even asked about the GRR and calibration method used for the BioGuard system, but all I got was a blank stare.

    So does anyone on this site have any info on how the new BioGuard system works? Any accuracy numbers? I'm assuming it is spectrophotometric as the sample spun and all test are performed simultaneously. I would really like to know if my CYA is really 120.

    Ron
    PS Sorry about the table, but I haven't found the code to change the font to fixed width.
    ============================================================ ======
    13k IG pebblesheen pool, Jandy Stealth 2HP main pump w/ Polaris 3/4HP booster, Jandy CL460 Cartridge Filter
    Jandy Legacy LRZE 400 Heater, Bleach chlorination, Polaris 360 Cleaner, TF100 Test Kit

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    Mod Squad Bama Rambler's Avatar
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    Re: Variations in commercial analysis

    Welcome to TFP.

    First and foremost, trust your own testing! If you read around on this site a bit you'll soon learn how consistantly bad pool store tests are. It doesn't matter which system they use, one is no better than another. You'll also begin to see that they are the most wrong on the CYA test.

    I would fully trust the results you get with the TF-100.
    I would also not change a parameter based on their testing unless it creates an warranty issue with them.
    Dave J. TFP Moderator
    24' x 52" Round AGP. 2hp/¼hp SPL Power-Flo 2-speed pump. 200sqft Waterway Cartridge Filter. 45MHP2(3GPD) Stenner Peristaltic Pump
    Pool School ----- Pool Math ----- TF-Test Kit

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    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Variations in commercial analysis

    Welcome to TFP!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by r37890
    I even asked about the GRR and calibration method used for the BioGuard system, but all I got was a blank stare.
    I think this pretty much answers your question. They do not have a CLUE how the machine works or how to maintain it ... so why would you trust its output?

    Trust your own test kit and hopefully it will not cause warranty issues as Dave said.
    Jason, TFP Moderator
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    Re: Variations in commercial analysis

    If you were concerned about accuracy of any of the tests or if you wanted to prove to the others that their tests are wrong, you can always get standard solutions for 50 ppm CYA, 100 ppm TA and 200 ppm CH.
    16,000 gallon outdoor in-ground 16'x32' plaster pool; Pentair Intelliflo VF pump; Pentair IntelliTouch i9+3s control system; Jandy CL-340 square foot cartridge filter
    12 Fafco solar panels; Purex Triton PowerMax 250 natural gas heater (200,000 BTU/hr output); automatic electric pool safety cover; 4-wheel pressure-side "The Pool Cleaner"

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    Patrick_B's Avatar
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    Re: Variations in commercial analysis

    Trust the kit you have. Use it and forget the rest. I use the best Photospectrometers made on a near daily basis, and they do not rely on simultaneous analysis at all. I would never trust one that did either. Did they say you had to bring water to them for warranty purposes or something similar?
    TFP Moderator
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    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: Variations in commercial analysis

    One follow up note here, lighting conditions are critical to good results on the TF-100 CYA test, this test should be done outdoors in bright light (full sun light) with the sun to your back and view tube held at waist level.

    Ike
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
    I use and endorse TFtestKits TF-100 from http://tftestkits.net
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    Re: Variations in commercial analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Brushpup
    Trust the kit you have. Use it and forget the rest. I use the best Photospectrometers made on a near daily basis, and they do not rely on simultaneous analysis at all. I would never trust one that did either. Did they say you had to bring water to them for warranty purposes or something similar?
    I say simultaneous, but in reality it is a chambered plastic wheel. The counter person injects the water in the center, then places the wheel in the detector. The wheel is spun which forces the water into a number of small chambers along the circumference of the wheel. I'm assuming each of these chambers is equipped with the appropriate chemicals for an individual test.

    While they don't mention the warranty specifically, the start up instructions do say that I need to bring water in for analysis weekly for the first four weeks. So I figure why give them an excuse later on down the road. With an investment this large I'm thinking a little paranoia is a good thing.

    But since both the vendor and Leslie's have in common is that they are using this as an opportunity to sell something. Leslie's recommends (and tests for) phosphates in the ppb level. And, of course, have something for sale to 'fix' your high counts. I guess they don't realize that this just increases my doubt of the veracity of their test.
    ============================================================ ======
    13k IG pebblesheen pool, Jandy Stealth 2HP main pump w/ Polaris 3/4HP booster, Jandy CL460 Cartridge Filter
    Jandy Legacy LRZE 400 Heater, Bleach chlorination, Polaris 360 Cleaner, TF100 Test Kit

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    Re: Variations in commercial analysis

    First, thanks for posting the results of your testing versus the other two. I was suprised that they were all as close as they were.

    If your not already, keep the results of your testing (and maybe their's too) on a spreadsheet. If there is a problem and they claim you weren't doing your job, you have the evidence that "speaking as a chemist" shows their testing proceedures and calibration issues leave doubt as to their accuracy, not yours. Like you said, with an investment as large as you shelled out, showing the next home owner your documentation that the pool is good and no problem would be icing on the cake for a potential sale. For now, that testing documentation will expose any change that might be occurring that needs attention.

    Be glad you found this site when you did. There is so much good, useful info here for the new pool owner.

    Bob E.

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    Isaac-1's Avatar
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    Re: Variations in commercial analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by r37890
    ....But since both the vendor and Leslie's have in common is that they are using this as an opportunity to sell something. Leslie's recommends (and tests for) phosphates in the ppb level. And, of course, have something for sale to 'fix' your high counts. I guess they don't realize that this just increases my doubt of the veracity of their test.
    You are not their typical intended audience.

    Ike
    Indoor 20x40 35,000 gallon vinyl pool with 1.5 HP 2 speed Jandy FloPro pump, Hayward EC75 Perflex DE filter, 11 4x12 Techno-Solis solar panels w/ Aquasolar controller, Aquabot Turbo T Robot Cleaner. Also LMI metering chlorine dispenser pump and HotSpring Jetsetter
    I use and endorse TFtestKits TF-100 from http://tftestkits.net
    ~Remember TFP counts on your donations to keep this site ad free~

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Variations in commercial analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac-1
    You are not their typical intended audience.
    Yes, you are supposed to ohh and ahh...then reach for you wallet
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Patrick_B's Avatar
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    Re: Variations in commercial analysis

    Quote Originally Posted by linen
    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac-1
    You are not their typical intended audience.
    Yes, you are supposed to ohh and ahh...then reach for you wallet


    Very funny guys, but oh so true!
    TFP Moderator
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