My Brother needs help

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If you just keep the pH a little higher (so that the CSI is reasonable), it should be fine to leave the CH a little low. It will also raise by itself due to evaporation.

I replaced a most of my water and the CH was 140ppm in March and now it is 260ppm ... just due to the AZ evaporation. I kept my pH above 7.5 or so to keep the CSI in range.

This is a little on the advanced side and as Dave suggests it may be a little safer to boost the CH.
 
If it were my pool I would take a walk on the advanced side and go with Cal-Hypo and keep the PH on the high end of the acceptable range to compensate for low CH! He would avoid shelling out $40 - $50 for a 25 pound bucket of calcium chloride. He needs to buy chlorine anyway so why not buy cal-hypo that both sanitizes and raises CH as a bonus! I will see what my newbie brother is more comfortable with.

Just out of curiosity has anyone here done a cost comparison of sanitizing with Cal-Hypo versus bleach?
 
There are threads comparing costs ... although they are generally ignoring the added calcium (which is usually a negative, but in this case could help). Looking at just the FC component, the bleach/liquid is usually cheaper in terms of $/ppm FC.

It is easy enough for you to do that using PoolMath to see how much FC each 1lb of cal-hypo adds and divide that into its cost. Same for the bleach.
 
I suggest you look at it from your brothers point of view. Does he even have a test kit? Asking a newbie to balance and coordinate the adjustment of two parameters simultaneously is simply not a good idea.

If he screws that up, you will be blamed.

You will end up doing that work yourself if you don't keep things simple. If you don't mind that, you can certainly manage his water the way you are suggesting but it sounds like the responsibility will be on you to make it work. Does he live close by?
 
Dave on my recommendation he recently ordered the TF 100 test kit from you and is learning how to properly take care of his pool after years of using the wrong methods. He is a newbie in terms of proper pool care but has owned his pool for at least 12 years. I have told him about this web site and all that I have learned. He just went through the process of draining his pool due to off the chart levels of CYA and calcium and is trying to get on the right track using BBB. I have been closely advising him step by step on what to do because he is so busy with work and kids that he has not had the time to invest to read and study the methods here. I live in Northern California and he in Southern California which is about a distance of 430 miles. Between my advice and the advice of the TFP experts here via my post on his behalf he seems to be on the right track.
 
Chad628 said:
Richard how would I do the math to figure out how much Cal-hypo it would take to raise CH 150 ppm in a 15K gallon pool? The pool calculator only does the calculations for calcium chloride and calcium chloride dehydrate.
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Down at the bottom where it says Effects of Adding Chemicals. You can plug in a pound and see what it does, then some quick arithmetic to figure out how many pounds total. You can check it by plugging it in to the effects and see if you got it right. Then he just needs to not buy more than that quantity of Cal-hypo and he won't go over. Make sure he understands it doesn't get added all at once! He just uses it for normal chlorination, adding whatever amount it takes to maintain FC until it's all used up.
 
Thank you Richard. I thought your idea of using Cal-Hypo was very clever. I understand Dave's reservations about going this route and his suggestion of keeping it simple. I discussed all points of view with my brother and had him read all of the posts on this thread. He seems comfortable going the Cal-Hypo route. He is committed to stay on top of his testing with his new TF 100 test kit and we will closely watch his CSI until we arrive at the proper levels of calcium.

Last night he e mailed his latest test results:

PH 7.2
FC 4.5
CC 0
TA 170
CH 150
CYA (3/4 of the 5 lb. amount has dissolved. According to the pool calculator that amount should give him a CYA of 40 ppm. He will test CYA next week)

I instructed him to add 8 ounces of bleach and continue to run his spa spillover for aeration to try to get the TA lower. He will buy the Cal-Hypo this weekend. His TA went down 10 ppm in the last 24 hours. It seems to be going slow. I was surprised that his PH did not rise from the aeration and remained at 7.2.

Another curious thing is that he says that there are tiny bubbles that have formed all around his tile band. He says he had never seen that before. What could cause something like this?

10442859626_9000d53f28_z.jpg
 
To clarify, aeration does NOT lower the TA as you seemed to state. The aeration is solely trying to raise the pH faster, which will then allow you to add more acid that will lower the pH AND the TA.

He does not have to do the aeration as there is no real hurry to lower the TA ... just monitor the pH and lower as needed. Also since he is going to try to keep the pH a little higher to compensate for the low CH, the TA is going to not drop as quickly as it would if he could lower the pH back down to 7.0-7.2 each time.
 
To raise the CH level 100ppm (to keep it in the safe area) using 53% Cal-Hypo you'll end up needing over 500oz of Cal-Hypo. That's over 31lbs at $4ish a pound (Walmart prices). Keeping the CH that low for that long is asking from plaster damage. For about $15 you can get a 5lb container of calcium chloride that will keep the levels safe.

Keep it VERY simple at all times. He's just learning, and using Cal Hypo to raise the CH that much is asking for trouble. Keep in mind, WE understand the chemistry of the water, he does not. No reason to confuse him more by saying what he used before, and got him in trouble before.....is OK.



EDIT......

MAKE THAT $30 for calcium, as he's very low on CH. Still MUCH cheaper and easier than Cal-Hypo
 

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I now see he's had an issue in the past with Cal-Hypo.....used as a "shock". I really do this you're going over his head by maintaining a high PH level, raise his CH level, lower his TA level, and keeping his FC level in check.... All over a difference of a few bucks for calcium chloride. Start him off slow.

For the cost......
To increase the CH from 150 to 300 in a 15000 gallon pool

Using Cal-Hypo you'll need 450OZ.
Leslies Cal-Hypo runs about $100 for 25lbs....and he'll still need a few more bags to raise to his goal of 300.....so we'll call it $115. He will gain 145ppm of chlorine by doing this over time.

Using calcium chloride you'll need 20lbs.
Intheswim Calcium Increaser runs about $50....and he'll have some left over. To make up the 145ppm of chlorine he will use 26 gallons of 8% bleach....at about $3 a gallon, adding another $78. A total of $128

So......for about $15 he's using a product that's got him in trouble in the past, and likely will happen again. Not to mention the risk to the plaster by leaving the CH levels that low, for that amount of time. With the cooler temps....going through 145ppm of chlorine is going to take a LONG while.

Chad628 said:
I think you are right danacc. I just spoke to him on the phone and he told me he used to shock the pool with a granular powder that the pool store sold him without knowing what is was. I am sure that was calcium hypochlorite. He has not drained his pool in the ten years since he had his pool built. Ten years of shocking with calcium hypochlorite would explain those levels of calcium. He won't be making that mistake again. He now understands first hand why he needs to use liquid bleach for sanitizing and shocking.
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Just remember this......

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
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I want to thank you all for your feedback. I must confess I am confused on which way to advise him.

To use a metaphor I see Cal-Hypo vs calcium chloride as two roads to the same destination (300 ppm calcium). The Cal-Hypo road is a very long and winding dirt road and requires 4 wheel drive to travel it. The calcium chloride road is a newly paved super highway, is much safer and does not require 4 wheel drive. Do we seek danger and adventure on our journey or do we go the safe route?
 
I enjoyed the heck out of 4x4ing in the Vegas desert during my younger years. I can honestly say, over $15 give me a smooth ride any day. Much easier on the old back.
 
My brother just posted his latest test results done 24 hours after the previous results posted:

PH 7.3
FC 4.5
CC 0.5
TA 180
CH 150
CYA (Still dissolving)

I don't understand why his PH is not rising more due to his spa spillover running and aerating the water. I have decided to advise him to go the safe route and add calcium chloride to increase calcium 150 ppm.

Should I be concerned he went from zero CC to 0.5.

My suggested plan of action based on his latest results are:

1. Add 8 ounces of 12.5% liquid bleach to bump FC to 5
2. Add enough calcium chloride to raise CH by 150 ppm.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks
 
I'd play even safer........

Add enough calcium chloride to raise it to 225 (172oz). Then let it run for a day or two. Then retest and recalculate how much more is needed to get to 300. Always sneak up on the "goals" that are only fixed by water replacement. Much easier to add than to drain.

As for the CC result.....treat a 0.5 result as zero. IF he's really worried and wants to check if something's growing, try an OCLT.
 
Chad628 said:
What about the high alkalinity? Does he need to take action regarding that?
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Not really. TA kind of just determines how quickly the pH rises ... and since his is not rising quickly ... just ignore the TA. It will slowly be adjusted as the pH is kept in range.
 
jblizzle said:
Chad628 said:
What about the high alkalinity? Does he need to take action regarding that?
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Not really. TA kind of just determines how quickly the pH rises ... and since his is not rising quickly ... just ignore the TA. It will slowly be adjusted as the pH is kept in range.
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:goodjob:
+1 to Jason's comment.

Yes, keep it simple. New folks tend to focus on TA far too much. It will be taken care of with pH adjustments in time.
 

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