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Thread: Nature2 mineral cartridge and chlorine feeder

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    Nature2 mineral cartridge and chlorine feeder

    Mod edit: Since your post is not directly applicable to the thead you posted in (yours is not a swg combined with the nature 2 pack), I split it to its own topic. Thanks, moderator linen

    split from this topic: http://www.troublefreepool.com/zodia...ss-t52017.html


    So the biggest drawback to the zodiac is that it uses copper? And will change blond hair to green? That is a lot of copper isn't it? Also it is suppose to reduce chlorine usage. They never claimed you could go without it. I had a high-end pool company recommend this to me, they claim it works great for their clients out of all the technology they have tried. They believed it worked better than an ozinator. And if what they claim is true it should cut my cost of operating my pool in 1/2. Am I being naive?
    23k gal, IG Vinyl, Hayward S200

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    BoDarville's Avatar
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    Re: Zodiac Nature 2 Vision Pro - Useful or Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by alex26i
    So the biggest drawback to the zodiac is that it uses copper? And will change blond hair to green?
    Yes and Yes. With continued use, the copper can also result in metal stains which will require the use of other products to manage them.

    There are a lot of misconceptions about chlorine. Many people still mistakenly believe that chlorine is responsible for the green hair effect when we now know the culprit is copper. Many people think that a pool that smells like "chlorine" is over-chlorinated when in fact it is a sign that the pool is unsanitary. Even if the chlorine usage was reduced (which is a dubious claim), continued use of the copper could result in metal stains which would require you to use a sequestrant (hint...they're not cheap). So the claim of cutting your operating costs in half by using this product is total misinformation.
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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Zodiac Nature 2 Vision Pro - Useful or Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by alex26i
    They believed it worked better than an ozinator.
    That is not saying much. Ozinators are not needed in the typical outdoor residential pool that is properly chlorinated.

    Quote Originally Posted by alex26i
    Am I being naive?
    Yes, but it is not your fault...the pool industry has a lot of misinformation out there. Also, many experiences on this board have shown that great pool builders are often very poor pool chemists.

    As bama mentioned, chlorine is really the best and safest choice for residential pools. Many problems that chlorine has been blamed for is actually because of the improper use of chlorine. The methods taught here at tfp, teach to avoid this. What concerns do you have?
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Zodiac Nature 2 Vision Pro - Useful or Useless?

    Welcome to TFP!

    As a prior Nature 2 owner, I would say that the biggest drawback of the system is the cost it takes to operate. The cartridges are super expensive. Secondly, the addition of metals, needlessly, to your water not only stains hair, but plaster and other pool surfaces. Of course, hair grows and is replaced eventually. Pool surfaces that are stained with metals though can be costly and problematic to deal with. Thirdly, the system serves no purpose whatsoever in a properly sanitized pool. No pool that is properly chlorinated will ever need anything additional to prevent algae.

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    Re: Zodiac Nature 2 Vision Pro - Useful or Useless?

    I have had no problems with my pool, I have balanced it and kept it around 2 FC, once in a while it will dip and I get some algae. If I bring it back up the problem is solved. 95% of the time my pool is pretty much crystal clear. The main reason for the Nature 2 was to reduce chlorine usage. Right now my pool has no smell at all or taste of chlorine. I just wanted a pool with less chemicals. I had even look at a system called Go chem-less but it was way more expensive than I believe it was worth. My metals are pretty much .1 and my solids count is 1.5 ppm, everything else is balanced according to TFP numbers listed in the forum.
    23k gal, IG Vinyl, Hayward S200

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    Re: Zodiac Nature 2 Vision Pro - Useful or Useless?

    Alex26i

    You said it, occasionally you get algae. A properly maintained pool will never get algae. I am just finishing my 4th season with nary an algae issue.

    2ppm might not be enough chlorine given even a nominal CYA value.

    As a board, Nature 2 is not recommended. Not to say that folks cant go years without problems, but the downsides are not worth the risk and expense.
    Jim

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    Re: Zodiac Nature 2 Vision Pro - Useful or Useless?

    Thank you for the input guys. I Just thought I found a chemical free solution for my pool. Guess I am a little disappointed. I thought maybe they had updated the cartrages, because in their adds it sais will not stain. I do maintain my pool. I just feel 3 is a little high for free chlorine. Even though that is the number recommended in the forum. It seems more for like a public pool setting.
    23k gal, IG Vinyl, Hayward S200

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    Zodiac Nature 2 Vision Pro - Useful or Useless?

    FC levels are based on your CYA level, there is no one FC level that fits everyone's water. We too got that included with our pool package, I immediately disconnected it and tossed it in the shed. What a waste if money that thing if, especially the refill cartridges. This is our first year of pool ownership and I've had zero problems following the advice given here. We just go with the recommended numbers, have CYA around 40/50 and keep FC to match. We stay high on the recommended level and go with 7. if we used 3 it could dip down too low if we didn't watch it closely. Besides, there's no danger with high FC (within reason) it just costs more. Only extra thing we did was to add slime bag to trap what the filter was missing. Water has been crystal clear since day one.
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    Re: Zodiac Nature 2 Vision Pro - Useful or Useless?

    Please spend a little more time in pool school, because I think there's still a fundamental misunderstanding of the FC/CYA relationship. I don't want to give exact numbers wihout being completely accurate, but if you maintain an FC of 5 with a CYA of 40, your active chlorine level is still many orders of magnitude LESS than an FC of 1 with no CYA.
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    Re: Zodiac Nature 2 Vision Pro - Useful or Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by alex26i
    The main reason for the Nature 2 was to reduce chlorine usage.
    Do you have the "Nature 2 Vision Pro"? I believe that it includes a Saltwater Chlorine generator (swg) and the the Nature 2 mineral canister.

    Quote Originally Posted by alex26i
    I just feel 3 is a little high for free chlorine. Even though that is the number recommended in the forum. It seems more for like a public pool setting.
    As smy said, there is a great misunderstanding of the chlorine/cyanuric acid relationship.

    Let's use your 3 ppm example. I am assuming you have the swg version. If you followed our recommendations, then you would want your cyanuric acid (cya) level between 70-80 ppm. Let's assume 70 ppm for this example which then determines that you do not want your FC to drop below 3 ppm.

    Now a new term that should not to be confused with Free Chlorine (FC) is the "disinfecting chlorine" level which is a measure of what is available in the pool water to do the work on killing algae, bacteria, viruses, organics, etc. in the pool water.

    Back to our example, at 3 ppm FC and 70 ppm cya, the water has a "disinfecting chlorine" level of 0.017 ppm.

    Now lets compare that to a public pool with 3 ppm and 0 ppm cya (O cya is common and sometimes required in public pools)...it has a "disinfecting chlorine" level of about 1.70 ppm.

    As you can see, the public pool with 0 ppm cya has 10 times the "disinfecting chlorine" level of the residential pool with 70 ppm cya. The high level level of "disinfecting chlorine" in a public pools is why swimsuits fade, hair and skin gets dry. This would not happen in a properly maintained residential pool at 3 ppm and 70 ppm cya.

    Sorry for all the detail, but I hope it gives a little glimpse of how moving your FC up a little (or even a lot) when cya is in a pool is very benign to your swimmers.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Zodiac Nature 2 Vision Pro - Useful or Useless?

    no I am using the chlorine feeder and mineral canister. On their advertisement they claim over and over it won't stain pool equipment or the pool. I have the Nature 2 Pro G. Which I have not installed yet. Just sitting here maybe going back in a minute.

    As for the FC and and the cya. I have been reading the forums. My pool is very clear most of the time. And I have no smell or taste of chlorine in my pool. I am using fiber clear and it works great for me as a de alternative. It does clean the water very very well. My water even has a soft feeling to it. I just have very small kids and want to keep them healthy. My pool is almost always balanced it is sometimes a little off when it rains. Even at the pool store they say I am being to exact. We have had some crazy warm days and I wasn't watching my pool daily and let it slide and started to see a small amount of green showing up. A little boost in in the chlorine usually takes care of it within a hour or 2. I have been very happy with what I have now. I just felt this new filter system would reduce the amount I am throwing in the water. I am not interested in a SWG. My pool is also is an in-ground vynal liner. The pool company told me they have had people who have had the nature 2 and their liner will last upto 2 times longer using nature 2 filter. I talked to the company who is using this they claim they have never seen a copper issue. The cartridge has 1.4% copper in it and silver is the primary disinfectant. I am open minded to listen and have read what you wrote in detail and I am still confused on this result of metal in the water results. I said Maybe the older cartridge used more copper. They said there is a customer who has used one for over 12 years with no issues at all. And they have not seen any metal readings that would indicate otherwise.
    23k gal, IG Vinyl, Hayward S200

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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Nature chlorine feeder and mineral cartridge

    It not that everyone who has a copper ion based system such as the Nature2 gets staining...but enough do such that we don't consider it trouble free. Also, the cost of the cartridges quickly makes it less desirable compared to chlorine. In addition, many users of that system often require periodic "shocking" with chlorine, since the water gets "cloudy" (due to the inadequate FC level that Zodiac recommends). In fact, in the Zodiac operating manual, it calls out:
    If water is hazy, superoxidize with chlorine according to manufacturerís instructions. Additional shocking is recommended following rainstorms or heavy bather load. Do not re-enter the pool if the free available chlorine residual is over 3 ppm
    At tfp, we don't consider having to occasionally "super-chlorinate" normal or trouble free...there is nothing "easy or maintenance free" (Zodiac's words in the "Recipe" section) when you have to "superoxidize with chlorine" (also Zodiac's words) a pool.

    Quote Originally Posted by alex26i
    nature 2 filter
    What is this? If you are referring to the Nature2 pro G, that is not a filter.

    Quote Originally Posted by alex26i
    The pool company told me they have had people who have had the nature 2 and their liner will last upto 2 times longer using nature 2 filter.
    Low ph is usually the number one cause of liner aging. It is common for trichlor puck users to have low ph since the pucks are very acidic. Again, using the methods taught here on tfp will prevent this premature aging...so this has nothing to do with using a nature2, but how ph is maintained.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Nature2 mineral cartridge and chlorine feeder

    I am a recent ex-nature 2 user. I can't comment on staining etc, but my concern is that the product is a black box. There is no way you can know whether your pool is hygienic. The recommended chlorine level of 0.5-1.0 is far too low on its own to make your pool safe, so you have to hope and assume that the N2 cartridge is doing its job and is killing all the potential algae growth. You can't measure whether the N2 is working - you just have to assume it is.

    The fact that N2 users get cloudy water from time to time and have to shock is clear evidence to me that the thing doesn't work in a reliable way. From what I've learned, a well maintained pool with adequate chlorine does not need to be shocked all the time.


    I've switched to BBB and my pool is sparklingly clear, and all I do is put a bit of bleach in it every day or two (as per the dose from the pool calc). Before I switched I was using N2 and I battled algae and cloudy water all summer long. Turned out I had a problem with the cartridge - but this is the point - you'll only know you have a problem when your pool gets nasty.

    Don't use the N2.
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    Re: Zodiac Nature 2 Vision Pro - Useful or Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by linen
    Now a new term that should not to be confused with Free Chlorine (FC) is the "disinfecting chlorine" level which is a measure of what is available in the pool water to do the work on killing algae, bacteria, viruses, organics, etc. in the pool water.

    Back to our example, at 3 ppm FC and 70 ppm cya, the water has a "disinfecting chlorine" level of 0.017 ppm.

    Now lets compare that to a public pool with 3 ppm and 0 ppm cya (O cya is common and sometimes required in public pools)...it has a "disinfecting chlorine" level of about 1.70 ppm.

    As you can see, the public pool with 0 ppm cya has 10 times the "disinfecting chlorine" level of the residential pool with 70 ppm cya. The high level level of "disinfecting chlorine" in a public pools is why swimsuits fade, hair and skin gets dry. This would not happen in a properly maintained residential pool at 3 ppm and 70 ppm cya.

    Sorry for all the detail, but I hope it gives a little glimpse of how moving your FC up a little (or even a lot) when cya is in a pool is very benign to your swimmers.
    Linen, I love this detail and want more! Can you explain how you get to the level of disinfecting chlorine relative to CYA, and maybe elaborate on the difference between disinfecting chlorine and free chlorine. Or, if it is too involved I'll take a pointer to a paper or thread on it.... couldn't find anything obvious with a quick search here.
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    Re: Zodiac Nature 2 Vision Pro - Useful or Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls234
    Linen, I love this detail and want more! Can you explain how you get to the level of disinfecting chlorine relative to CYA, and maybe elaborate on the difference between disinfecting chlorine and free chlorine. Or, if it is too involved I'll take a pointer to a paper or thread on it.... couldn't find anything obvious with a quick search here.
    Here is a chart that shows the "disinfecting chlorine level" I sometimes call it the "active chlorine level":
    http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/~ri ... l/HOCl.htm

    Not sure if that is what Linen was looking at.

    You can find LOADS of information if you search for some of chem geeks posts in the Deep End.

    Here are some with links to more:
    chlorine-cya-chart-t2346.html
    alternative-to-chlorine-peroxide-t57059.html
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    Re: Nature2 mineral cartridge and chlorine feeder

    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls234
    Linen, I love this detail and want more! Can you explain how you get to the level of disinfecting chlorine relative to CYA, and maybe elaborate on the difference between disinfecting chlorine and free chlorine. Or, if it is too involved I'll take a pointer to a paper or thread on it.... couldn't find anything obvious with a quick search here.
    Not my detail...

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle
    Here is a chart that shows the "disinfecting chlorine level" I sometimes call it the "active chlorine level":
    http://richardfalk.home.comcast.net/~ri ... l/HOCl.htm

    Not sure if that is what Linen was looking at.
    Yep, that is one, also here: http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-...stry-t628.html and http://www.troublefreepool.com/pool-...stry-t628.html Looks like my number above is slightly off (I inferred it from the graph in my first link at 1.7 should be 1.45 per the chart), though it doesn't change the example much.

    In my basic understanding "disinfecting chlrone" is HOCl, which is called Hypochlorus Acid and is a form Chlorine takes in pool water when not combined with cya (once combined it is a chlorinated cyanurate).

    We probably should not derail this thread much more unless the op wants this detail....my fault
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Nature2 mineral cartridge and chlorine feeder

    alex26i,

    The way that the copper ions from the Nature2 lower chlorine usage and levels is that they are an algaecide. So in theory you can use a lower FC level for a given CYA level than what we recommend, but as you found out you are still getting some algae now and then so clearly the copper ions aren't working well for you. That's probably because the level is too low. When the builder says there won't be staining, that also means the copper level isn't enough to prevent algae growth. The level of copper needed to prevent algae is very close to the level that can cause staining of plaster unless you keep your pH low. There are other copper-based systems, such as Ecosmarte, that explicitly tell people to keep their pH much lower to prevent staining (but they also used to claim that copper disinfects which isn't true since it does not kill fecal bacteria).

    It's not that copper isn't an effective algaecide, but rather that it comes with side effects. That's the main reason we don't recommend it. If you truly absolutely positively had to have a lower chlorine level than we recommend, then an algaecide you could use without significant side effects is Polyquat 60. The only issue there is that you have to add it weekly so it's extra cost, but at least it doesn't stain, doesn't make blond hair greenish, and doesn't foam (some other less expensive algaecides can foam). We normally don't recommend this because chlorine alone at proper FC/CYA levels is sufficient for preventing algae growth and is also the least expensive approach with the least amount of different chemicals needing to be added to the pool.

    However, since the level of active chlorine in your pool if you were to follow the Chlorine / CYA Chart is equivalent to only 0.07 ppm FC with no CYA, I'm having a hard time understanding why this is a problem for you. You have to get out of your head that "FC" alone means anything. When there is CYA in the water, around 97% of the chlorine is bound to it and nearly inert. The FC level represents the reserve or reservoir or chlorine, not its strength. It is the very small amount of unbound active chlorine that does the actual disinfection, oxidation of bather waste, and oxidation of swimsuits, skin and hair. As linen wrote, it's an order of magnitude lower in chlorine level that typical commercial/public pools that do not use CYA (usually indoor pools, but sometimes outdoor ones and spas as well).
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