Hayward H400ID1 won't spark

[amati5]

I haven't got time to check everything but I am hoping for a quick tip or a common thing to check first while waiting for the weekend. I had problem with the module (RAM-3MC7-04) before and it turned out the legs on the actual ignitor (not sure what's called but it generates the voltage to spark, under the red rubber boot in the pic) were loose and resoldeing fixed the problem. I wonder there is a procedure to test this part and change as needed instead of buying a new whole board (it it turns out the problem is within the board). So far I have continuity between 2 of the 3 legs and don't know if this is normal. I know I will have to test to make sure if the board gets proper power to it first but just hope for a quick tip before I get to it.

thx for any info[attachment=0:rlyiivzh]DSC04720rs[1].jpg[/attachment:rlyiivzh]

 

[amati5]

Did the test last night and all input voltages were there. The voltate at the nipple under the boot was somehere in the 90s and when the heater was turned on, it dropped to the 80s. Probably not high enough to generate a spark. I removed that thing to see if there was a part number at the bottom but nothing. There is a capacitor next to it (blue rectangle) that I thought might be the problem, too. On it, it said 1 f J 400V Phillips so I'm assuming the nipple should generate somewhere 400V when activated. I've seen many times, it's the capacitor that went bad but this one looks clean. Anyone know the part name of the nipple? is it a transformer?
Oh, is there any other fault that could have prevented the ignitor from sparking? like air pressure switch, etc...I am not sure the order of all the sensors as what the system checks first. I smelled gas so the gas valve is ok.

thx
[attachment=0:3doz6p1i]IMG_2184rs.jpg[/attachment:3doz6p1i]

 

[danpik]

I haven't got time to check everything but I am hoping for a quick tip or a common thing to check first while waiting for the weekend. I had problem with the module (RAM-3MC7-04) before and it turned out the legs on the actual ignitor (not sure what's called but it generates the voltage to spark, under the red rubber boot in the pic) were loose and resoldeing fixed the problem. I wonder there is a procedure to test this part and change as needed instead of buying a new whole board (it it turns out the problem is within the board). So far I have continuity between 2 of the 3 legs and don't know if this is normal. I know I will have to test to make sure if the board gets proper power to it first but just hope for a quick tip before I get to it.

Not sure what you mean by "So far I have continuity between 2 of the 3 legs" I am guessing you are testing the input leads to the coil where they are soldered to the board. Not sure that part is serviced as a separate part. Honestly I have never checked the leads on one to see what the readings are. If you indeed had to resolder these, I would check them closely again. If they were loose once thay may have done it again.

Did the test last night and all input voltages were there. The voltate at the nipple under the boot was somehere in the 90s and when the heater was turned on, it dropped to the 80s.

Not a good idea to do this. Spark ingition systems generate a very high , low amp, voltage. I doubt your meter is able to read it and in fact, if it put out a high enough voltage, it could damage your meter. With the ingiter hooked up, set you meter to OHMS and check for continuity from the tip of the electrode to ground. You should not have continuity. If you do there is a short to ground which can cause a no spark or weak spark condition. Keep in mind that the short can be in the cable or the module (nipple). To help isolate the problem, unhook the cable from the module. Test the cable by touching the end of the cable with one lead with the other to ground. If you have continuity then the short is in the cable. If no continuity, and the first test showed continuity then the module is suspect for an internal short to ground

Probably not high enough to generate a spark. I removed that thing to see if there was a part number at the bottom but nothing. There is a capacitor next to it (blue rectangle) that I thought might be the problem, too. On it, it said 1 f J 400V Phillips so I'm assuming the nipple should generate somewhere 400V when activated.

The cap may be supplying 400 v to the primary side of the coil. The secondary side will be puting out a lot more than that

I've seen many times, it's the capacitor that went bad but this one looks clean. Anyone know the part name of the nipple? is it a transformer

Yes

Oh, is there any other fault that could have prevented the ignitor from sparking? like air pressure switch, etc...I am not sure the order of all the sensors as what the system checks first.

All of the switches need to prove positive (close) in order for the control board to allow the gas valve to open and the igniter to spark. The ignition systen fires the spark first and then opens the gas valve. All of the switches are generaly daisy chained thru one circuit. If you can find the begining and end of the circuit it can be jumpered to test. It is also posible to jump them at the board.

I smelled gas so the gas valve is ok.

I am a little puzzled by this as if there is no spark then the valve never should have opened.

 

[amati5]

[b]"Not sure what you mean by "So far I have continuity between 2 of the 3 legs" I am guessing you are testing the input leads to the coil where they are soldered to the board. Not sure that part is serviced as a separate part. Honestly I have never checked the leads on one to see what the readings are. If you indeed had to resolder these, I would check them closely again. If they were loose once thay may have done it again"[/b].

I did that just to hope that the info mean something to someone who knows. The 3 legs are still tight and have contact to all other soldered points on their path.



Not a good idea to do this. Spark ingition systems generate a very high , low amp, voltage. I doubt your meter is able to read it and in fact, if it put out a high enough voltage, it could damage your meter. With the ingiter hooked up, set you meter to OHMS and check for continuity from the tip of the electrode to ground. You should not have continuity. If you do there is a short to ground which can cause a no spark or weak spark condition. Keep in mind that the short can be in the cable or the module (nipple). To help isolate the problem, unhook the cable from the module. Test the cable by touching the end of the cable with one lead with the other to ground. If you have continuity then the short is in the cable. If no continuity, and the first test showed continuity then the module is suspect for an internal short to ground

That's a good idea to check for shorts. Can't imagine that could happen since the pool was working ony a few days ago.



The cap may be supplying 400 v to the primary side of the coil. The secondary side will be puting out a lot more than that

Good thing it didn't work or it could have toasted my meter.



All of the switches need to prove positive (close) in order for the control board to allow the gas valve to open and the igniter to spark. The ignition systen fires the spark first and then opens the gas valve. All of the switches are generaly daisy chained thru one circuit. If you can find the begining and end of the circuit it can be jumpered to test. It is also posible to jump them at the board.

The schematic is printed on the door so I guess I can follow that and check/jump each one. Man, I thought I narrowed it down to the ignition module.



I am a little puzzled by this as if there is no spark then the valve never should have opened.


I actually heard it shut down with a loud sound a few seconds after no spark. What detects if there is spark?

So all the switches must have been ok before the module sent the signal to open the gas valve or generate voltage for the ignitor (I am not sure which one comes first) correct? Based on this logic, could I conclude that the problem is somewhere between the ignitor harness and the ignitor module?

From the diagram below, the ignitor looks like it' independent from the rest of the circuit. If so, how does it know when to stop the sparking?
[attachment=0:285fd6qz]DSC04727rs[1].jpg[/attachment:285fd6qz]

I can't even find a replacement board anywhere even if it turns out to the board. I heard that Hayward heaters are one of the most complicated units to deal with and many repair techs don't want to deal with it them. Is it true?

Thank you for the such a detailed reply. I learned quite a bit.

 

[danpik]

I spoke erroneously on the gas valve opening sequence. It is possible that the gas valve did open without spark. Not sure on the exact sequence of events from this board. Some boards monitor the voltage output to the igniter to determine if the valve can open or not. Spark ignition usually does not. The board knows to shut off the spark ignition after the flame lights with a rectified flame sense circuit. This is either sensed thru the igniter or a separate flame rod. if there is flame then the circuit keeps the gas valve open and shuts off the spark. If there is no flame then the board shuts the valve off. This is a timed event, usually 3-7 seconds

If you look at the bottom half of the schematic, you can see the sequence of sensors and switches that need to be satisfied. If you can find the beginning and end switches you can jump the whole circuit out there for a quick test.

 

[amati5]

If I jump from end to end bypassing all the switches, does it mean I will short the 24V?

 

[danpik]

If I jump from end to end bypassing all the switches, does it mean I will short the 24V?

No, don't short it to ground. That will not tell you anything. You need to determine the first and last switch in the circuit and jump those. In the schematic, the 24 volt system has the gas valve in it. Everything before that are simple on/off switches. Those are what you need to jump. If you are not comfortable with that do each one separate.

 

[ps0303]

I know so many people want to fix things on there own but after reading some of the testing you performed, pretty scary. The best thing you can do is just replace that control module and see if that resolves your issue. Probably the best advice would be to get a professional involved to look at this one.

 

[amati5]

If I jump from end to end bypassing all the switches, does it mean I will short the 24V?

No, don't short it to ground. That will not tell you anything. You need to determine the first and last switch in the circuit and jump those. In the schematic, the 24 volt system has the gas valve in it. Everything before that are simple on/off switches. Those are what you need to jump. If you are not comfortable with that do each one separate.

Got it. Thx

 

[amati5]

I know so many people want to fix things on there own but after reading some of the testing you performed, pretty scary. The best thing you can do is just replace that control module and see if that resolves your issue. Probably the best advice would be to get a professional involved to look at this one.

I have electrical background (not practicing) so I am comfortable with circuits. I was hoping to find a fail component on the board to replace, if not, this thing is too old to pay for repair, not worth it. Worst case, I'll buy a new one heater. Can't even find the board anymore anyway. I've maintained this unit for the last 12 yrs.

 

[amati5]

Ok, this is embarrasing but it turned out it was not the heater (this happened many times before until I change my filter to cartridge). My Aquarite was clogged with the white stuff, not sure what they are and why that happened.

But then it's confussing as why the system "normal" light was still on. If the flow was restricted ( I assume, even though the Aquarite is installed after the heater ), the pressure switch should have stayed open, incompleted the circuit before the system switch. It should't even have let me turn on the heater. Unless, despite the slow flow out of the Aquarite, the heater pressure switch was still ok (closed). If this was the case, what dectected the slow flow (out the Aquarite) to prevent the sparking.

I am glad it's working again but just currious as how the whole system works.

Thx again for all the answers.

 

[danpik]

Ok, this is embarrasing but it turned out it was not the heater (this happened many times before until I change my filter to cartridge). My Aquarite was clogged with the white stuff, not sure what they are and why that happened.

But then it's confussing as why the system "normal" light was still on. If the flow was restricted ( I assume, even though the Aquarite is installed after the heater ), the pressure switch should have stayed open, incompleted the circuit before the system switch. It should't even have let me turn on the heater. Unless, despite the slow flow out of the Aquarite, the heater pressure switch was still ok (closed). If this was the case, what dectected the slow flow (out the Aquarite) to prevent the sparking.

I am glad it's working again but just currious as how the whole system works.

Thx again for all the answers.

If by "let me turn on the heater" you mean turn on the power switch and get power to the board ad controls, that won't prevent that. The pressure switch is in line with all other limit and overtemp switches. It will prevent the spark ignition from activating and should also prevent the gas valve from opening.

Here is a basic order of operation for heating systems:

1. Thermostat - calls for heat
2. Inducer motor - ON (If equipped)
3. Control Board - proves pressure switch is closed, limits and rollout closed
4. Hot Surface Igniter/spark ignition - On
5. Gas valve - OPEN
6. Control Board - Proves Flame
7. Thermostat - satisfied
8. Burner - OFF (gas valve closed)
9. Inducer motor -post purge (time varies) (if equipped)

 

[amati5]

If by "let me turn on the heater" you mean turn on the power switch and get power to the board ad controls, that won't prevent that. The pressure switch is in line with all other limit and overtemp switches. It will prevent the spark ignition from activating and should also prevent the gas valve from opening.

Here is a basic order of operation for heating systems:

1. Thermostat - calls for heat
2. Inducer motor - ON (If equipped)
3. Control Board - proves pressure switch is closed, limits and rollout closed
4. Hot Surface Igniter/spark ignition - On
5. Gas valve - OPEN
6. Control Board - Proves Flame
7. Thermostat - satisfied
8. Burner - OFF (gas valve closed)
9. Inducer motor -post purge (time varies) (if equipped)

I guess I was thinking out loud when I said that because if I'd seen the "normal" (yellow) light was off, I wouldn't bother to turn it on but to check instead.
If you look at the schematic above, if the water pressure switch is open, the "yellow" light doens't get the power and should not lit up, should it?

Now since the normal yellow light was on, then the water pressure switch must have been closed, so which sensor (has to be after the system switch) detected the problem in the Aquarite in step 3 above and prevented sparking?

 

[ps0303]

The pressure switch will always prove pressure even if there is a clog after the heater. It sense incoming pressure, not back pressure. So in your case, the unit should fire but had it lit and there wasn't good flow, it would have shut down on overheat.

The "white stuff" is most likely calcium build up. How's your pools PH?

 

[amati5]

The pressure switch will always prove pressure even if there is a clog after the heater. It sense incoming pressure, not back pressure. So in your case, the unit should fire but had it lit and there wasn't good flow, it would have shut down on overheat.

The "white stuff" is most likely calcium build up. How's your pools PH?

It's strange. It never tried to spark but once I cleaned out the Aquarite cell, it worked instantly.

Now that you mentioned the "overheat", when I just installed the 2 speed pump, I tried to run the heater with the low speed which worked for a short time and then it made loud noise in the heater. Turing on on high speed eliminated the problem so I think the the noise was from overheating. But the system didn't shut it off.

The PH was always within range, I made sure of it from mistake in the past.

thx