Problem with DE Blowing through Sand Filter

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The Pre-Filter is 132 gallons per minute...so I don't think THIS is the limiting factor, but you are right it could be.

This forum is all about learning...so that is why I am really trying to get to the bottom of this. My media cost a TON of $$ and I hate to give up so fast...so I will continue to dig. I know next season if I can't figure it out, I will switch...but I want to hang in a bit.

I can certainly remove the "pre-filter" and see what that does...as this MIGHT be the problem, since EcoSmarte said the media needs to be DIRTY in order to work correctly.

Guess I am looking for any more guidance vs. just switch back to sand...although this does contradict my post above (which was written while my blood was boiling)
 
toofast said:
The Pre-Filter is 132 gallons per minute...so I don't think THIS is the limiting factor, but you are right it could be.

This forum is all about learning...so that is why I am really trying to get to the bottom of this. My media cost a TON of $$ and I hate to give up so fast...so I will continue to dig. I know next season if I can't figure it out, I will switch...but I want to hang in a bit.

I can certainly remove the "pre-filter" and see what that does...as this MIGHT be the problem, since EcoSmarte said the media needs to be DIRTY in order to work correctly.

Guess I am looking for any more guidance vs. just switch back to sand...although this does contradict my post above (which was written while my blood was boiling)
Click to expand...

The prefilter is one variable you can just take out temporarily.
It has to add some degree of pressure to work even though it may flow quite a lot.

You could also clean out the media and inspect the interior of the filter for the amount of pea gravel and potential damage to the laterals and if something is out of whack start from there or put it all back in if every thing's ok.

Sand is pretty cheap last I checked, but nothings stopping you from opening things up and poking around to see what you may find.

UD
 
I wondered if adding a small layer of traditional filter sand to the top of the media might not help. It sounds to me, a non-sand filter savvy DE filter owner, that the gaps in the media are simply allowing too much debris through. The pre-filter is obviously taking the lion share of debris out. It is taking out "too much" of the large debris the would normally "pre-coat" the sand filter and allow it to filter out the fines. Since we normally use DE to "add debris" to a sand filter to improve its performance, the sand needs some dirt in it to become more effective at collecting fine debris.

Is this simply that a sand filter should NOT have a pre-filter like this one installed with it?

I think the pre-filter looks pretty cool. Would it be more appropriately installed on a DE filter? I would be willing to "test" it for you...LOL
 
techguy said:
I wondered if adding a small layer of traditional filter sand to the top of the media might not help. It sounds to me, a non-sand filter savvy DE filter owner, that the gaps in the media are simply allowing too much debris through. The pre-filter is obviously taking the lion share of debris out. It is taking out "too much" of the large debris the would normally "pre-coat" the sand filter and allow it to filter out the fines. Since we normally use DE to "add debris" to a sand filter to improve its performance, the sand needs some dirt in it to become more effective at collecting fine debris.

Is this simply that a sand filter should NOT have a pre-filter like this one installed with it?

I think the pre-filter looks pretty cool. Would it be more appropriately installed on a DE filter? I would be willing to "test" it for you...LOL
Click to expand...

It sure is a cool add on I agree. I cant figure out the ROI on it though in this application.

As an in line to a well pump- sure super useful.

As a secondary pool filter out of three filtering devices that happens to be massively smaller than the filter behind it I just dont see the point of it in this application.

To the OP - DE is a interesting subject- you'll find that there are tons of discussion about the proper way to add it to a regular system. Some guys insist you need to pre mix a slurry and dump it in otherwise it will clump and turn in to cement, other guys say just to dump scoops right into the skimmer.

If you haven't tried a slurry of De as a delivery method you may want to give that a shot. worst it ends up in the pool again or the pre filter.

UD
 
Adding the DE is what got us to this point. IIRC, he added DE and the pre-filter removed it but the fines in the pool continue to be allowed thru both the pre-filter and the sand/glass filter.

For me, this pre-filter looks like a great addition to a DE filter in that it would remove the larger debris that plug up a DE filter so very quickly when the water is green. But it make me wonder if ALL sand/glass filters require this mid-level (DE sized) debris in the media to even filter at all and a sand filter is not compatible with this device.
 
I actually did the slurry method and it all ended (or most of it that wasn't stuck in the pre-filter) in the pool.

Been filtering to waste and burned through quite a bit of water trying to clean that mess up. Thinking the direct scoops will be the same.
 
By the way, I disagree with the comment to backwash on a time basis (every 6 weeks). Mine can go the whole season without requiring a backwash if I have a clear season. I've only backwashed once during swim season this year.
 
techguy said:
Adding the DE is what got us to this point. IIRC, he added DE and the pre-filter removed it but the fines in the pool continue to be allowed thru both the pre-filter and the sand/glass filter.

For me, this pre-filter looks like a great addition to a DE filter in that it would remove the larger debris that plug up a DE filter so very quickly when the water is green. But it make me wonder if ALL sand/glass filters require this mid-level (DE sized) debris in the media to even filter at all and a sand filter is not compatible with this device.
Click to expand...


However, funny thing is the MFG of the Pre-Filter recommends Glass Media (not Ecosmart though) wonder if the problem is incompatibility between the media...

next I gotta call Waterco!
 
toofast said:
I actually did the slurry method and it all ended (or most of it that wasn't stuck in the pre-filter) in the pool.

Been filtering to waste and burned through quite a bit of water trying to clean that mess up. Thinking the direct scoops will be the same.
Click to expand...

One of the bennies of a variable speed pump is when filtering to waste you can get the job done and conserve lots of water.

UD
 

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I urge a bit of POP, especially considering the initial cost of the glass media. You don't want to throw it away if ya don't have to.

My pool buddy at work switched from sand to glass this year and he loves it. It's glass on pea gravel. Says the pool water is as clear as he's ever seen. The backwash procedure is more involved than sand, though, like what toofast described.

The one possible issue I read about online concerned dirty pea gravel.
"If it's the dirty type for concrete or landscaping, sometimes that backwash rinse is not enough and will not clean all the ultra-fine silt off the rocks. That fine silt gets into the pool, creates a cloudy pool nightmare that will take a while to settle to the bottom, and needs to be vacuumed out to waste."

So, maybe it'll work OK after lots of backwashes and vac to waste any fine debris that gets through the filter in the early days.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck!
 
RobbieH said:
By the way, I disagree with the comment to backwash on a time basis (every 6 weeks). Mine can go the whole season without requiring a backwash if I have a clear season. I've only backwashed once during swim season this year.
Click to expand...


There are lots of variables that determine a backwash interval.

Sure you can go a whole season without a backwash but what happens to the rate of flow in the last month or two? It goes way down.

Ive tuned my system to filter at very low RPM/ pressure.
The byproduct of this is that my flow can slow to an unworkable level with just a few pound of pressure. I can keep upping the RPM and wait a long time, or I can backwash frequently and keep the flow and efficiency up.

With DE I simply put more RPM to the pump until I had 10 pounds of rise at 1 HP of pump performance (746 watts) because there is no such thing as an easy flush and clean I pushed the system as long as I could get away with.

With a sand filter I can clean the filter just a few minutes and keep my pool flowing freely and working with just a few pounds of pressure.

Make sense?

UD
 
RobbieH said:
My pressure does not creep up, otherwise I would backwash. I'm installing an Intelliflo VF today, steady flow won't be an issue. :)
Click to expand...


So you are saying your pressure doesnt go up after a whole season of filtering with the same charge?
(Never seen this in my life)

The VF (great pump) will mask a dirty filter by simply increasing power to keep the flow at whatever you set.


UD
 
I am. I'm on sand, so there's not a charge. Having a 600 lb sand filter has its benefits. I did mention I have had to backwash once this year, so I wasn't able to make that claim for 2013.

I am aware of how the VF operates and that it will continue to flow. I will continue to monitor filter pressure as always. Can't wait to have it in. My current pump sounds like it is about to explode. :)

After installation of my pump, I'm also installing a camera in the equipment room so I can observe the filter pressure, SWG readings, etc. while on the road. I have multiple cameras around my house so it's not a big deal to add another. I've found that trying to walk someone through how to operate the equipment or even get me a reading is too big a pain.
 
Davegvg said:
RobbieH said:
By the way, I disagree with the comment to backwash on a time basis (every 6 weeks). Mine can go the whole season without requiring a backwash if I have a clear season. I've only backwashed once during swim season this year.
Click to expand...


There are lots of variables that determine a backwash interval.

Sure you can go a whole season without a backwash but what happens to the rate of flow in the last month or two? It goes way down.

Ive tuned my system to filter at very low RPM/ pressure.
The byproduct of this is that my flow can slow to an unworkable level with just a few pound of pressure. I can keep upping the RPM and wait a long time, or I can backwash frequently and keep the flow and efficiency up.

With DE I simply put more RPM to the pump until I had 10 pounds of rise at 1 HP of pump performance (746 watts) because there is no such thing as an easy flush and clean I pushed the system as long as I could get away with.

With a sand filter I can clean the filter just a few minutes and keep my pool flowing freely and working with just a few pounds of pressure.

Make sense?

UD
Click to expand...

Our recommendation is to backwash when the pressure rises 20-25% over the clean pressure ... and this is best determined at a higher (2000+ rpm) speed if you have a VS pump so you can actually see the rise.

If you are running at 2psi at a low RPM and then see 1PSI rise ... that is already double our recommendation.

Robbie knows this and when you have a clean pool and an appropriately sized filter, going a season without needed to clean the filter (any type) can be done. I am sure Robbie is just not getting the pressure rise where a cleaning is required.
 
RobbieH said:
I am. I'm on sand, so there's not a charge. Having a 600 lb sand filter has its benefits. I did mention I have had to backwash once this year, so I wasn't able to make that claim for 2013.

I am aware of how the VF operates and that it will continue to flow. I will continue to monitor filter pressure as always.
Click to expand...


Sorry yes - I meant without a "backwash."

Awesome. Just awesome.

I hope to get similar performance from my 500LB unit.

Im even more enamored with sand/type filter after this exchange .

UD
 
jblizzle said:
Our recommendation is to backwash when the pressure rises 20-25% over the clean pressure ... and this is best determined at a higher (2000+ rpm) speed if you have a VS pump so you can actually see the rise.

If you are running at 2psi at a low RPM and then see 1PSI rise ... that is already double our recommendation.

Robbie knows this and when you have a clean pool and an appropriately sized filter, going a season without needed to clean the filter (any type) can be done. I am sure Robbie is just not getting the pressure rise where a cleaning is required.
Click to expand...


Ive never seen any filter that I have owned go a whole season without any rise at all.

Hopefully this will be my first. Im enamored with this timeline and hope to duplicate it.

My current setup at 1 month old has not had any increase yet, but yes 2-3 would be too much using 20-25% as a rule.

Its my experience most filter come with a pressure gauge with 2 connected needles that are about 10 LB apart. This would make the 2-25% rule way under what the manufacturers are suggesting with their own gauges.
Ill go look at my Quad DE and my new Hayward and see exactly what it is but its more than 25% for certain.


UD
 

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