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Thread: what causes ch to rise?

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    what causes ch to rise?

    Just did my first full test with TF-100 kit and noticed mt CH is ridiculously high. Its always been been a little high for the pool store tests (500) but my test shows more than double theres. I've had the pool about 3 years and this is the first time I fully tested it myself. I've only shocked it once in the last year and I just tested CH on my tap water and its only 150. Just wondering if theres something else that would cause it to be that high. Guess I'll be draining my pool.
    CYA 20 (currently adding conditioner to raise)
    FC 5
    TA 50 (currently adding baking soda to raise)
    CH 1250! ( I tested it twice and double checked instructions cause i didnt believe it)
    ph 7.5
    9k gallon concrete in ground pool
    800 gallon spa with small waterfall spillover into pool
    intellichlor IC40 SWG
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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    There are two common reasons CH rises.
    1. High CH fill water
    2. Use of Cal-Hypo for chlorination or "shock".

    So what have you been using for shocking the pool?

    Also, make sure you are adequately stirring the solution when you add the drops. Add them slowly, and stir like crazy. This is where the SpeedStir really comes in handy.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    CH - Calcium Hardness


    Rinse the sample tube with pool water.
    Fill the sample tube with pool water to the 25 ml mark. The top of the sample will be curved. This curve is called a meniscus. The bottom of the meniscus should be level with the 25 ml mark.
    Add 20 drops of R-0010 and swirl to mix.
    Add 5 drops of R-0011L and swirl to mix. The solution should turn red, pink, or blue. If the sample turns blue, you are done and your CH level is zero.
    Counting the number of drops as you go, add R-0012 one drop at a time, swirling to mix after each drop.
    Continue adding drops until the color changes to something more or less blue. If the sample turns purple see the note on "fading endpoint" below.

    Continue adding drops as long as the color continues changing. The final drop, that does not change the color any further, does not count.

    If the sample starts to turn blue and then goes back to red/pink and stays there from several more drops this is also a "fading endpoint", see the note below.

    Multiply the number of drops by 10 to get your CH level. Remember that the final drop, which didn't cause any further color change, doesn't count.
    Dispose of the sample safely. It is best to pour it down the drain with the water running. Do not add it back to the pool.
    Rinse the sample tube with tap water and store for next time.

    Notes

    Hold the dropper bottles vertically and squeeze gently, so that drops come out slowly and seem to hang on the tip of the dropper bottle for a moment before falling.
    If you expect that your CH level is extremely high, you can do the test so that each drop is 25, instead of 10, to speed up the process and save on reagent usage. Use 10 ml of pool water, 10 drops of R-0010, 3 drops of R-0011L, and multiply the number of drops of R-0012 by 25 to get your CH level.
    Measuring high CH levels is much easier and more precise if you use a magnetic stirrer.
    The sample may turn purple during the test, or go to blue for a moment and then turn back to red/pink. This is called a "fading endpoint" and is caused by interference from metal ions. If this happens, do the test again, but this time add five drops of R-0012 before adding any R-0010 or R-0011L. Remember to count the initial five drops in the total.
    In extreme cases, a fading endpoint may occur even when adding five drops of R-0012 at the start. If that happens, mix pool water with an equal quantity of distilled water, test that, and then multiply the result by two.
    R-0010 is calcium buffer, a strong base which prevents interference from magnesium.
    R-0011L is calcium indicator, an organic dye used to provide the red/blue color. It should be a deep blue color. If the dye stains the plastic bottle it is stored in, it has gone bad.
    R-0012 is hardness reagent, used to titrate until the color changes.
    The precision of the measurement is plus or minus one drop when up to 10 drops of titrant are used, or plus or minus 10% of the final reading, when more than 10 drops of titrant are used.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieH
    CH - Calcium Hardness


    Rinse the sample tube with pool water.
    Fill the sample tube with pool water to the 25 ml mark. The top of the sample will be curved. This curve is called a meniscus. The bottom of the meniscus should be level with the 25 ml mark.
    Add 20 drops of R-0010 and swirl to mix.
    .
    Are you sure about the 20 drops of R-0010? I haven't done this in awhile but I thought it was 2 drops.
    16,500 gallon, 18" x 38" Grecian; IG Vinyl, Hayward DE

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Yes mine says 20 drops of R-0010 and 5 drops of R-0011L. I did 10 drops at a time of R-0012 and used the speedstir to mix it after every 10. Cant remember what i used to shock the pool last time because its been awhile but I'll see if I can find it
    9k gallon concrete in ground pool
    800 gallon spa with small waterfall spillover into pool
    intellichlor IC40 SWG
    intelliflo variable speed pump ran 8am to 330pm @ 40GPM and 3pm to 5pm @ 65GPM
    Pentair quad DE filter
    "the pool cleaner" suction 2 wheel vacuum
    Full California sun all day
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Quote Originally Posted by DorsalSpine
    Are you sure about the 20 drops of R-0010? I haven't done this in awhile but I thought it was 2 drops.
    Positive.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Quote Originally Posted by DorsalSpine
    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieH
    CH - Calcium Hardness


    Rinse the sample tube with pool water.
    Fill the sample tube with pool water to the 25 ml mark. The top of the sample will be curved. This curve is called a meniscus. The bottom of the meniscus should be level with the 25 ml mark.
    Add 20 drops of R-0010 and swirl to mix.
    .
    Are you sure about the 20 drops of R-0010? I haven't done this in awhile but I thought it was 2 drops.
    2 drops is wrong, RobbieH is correct. It is 20 drops of R-0010.

    You can confirm in Extended Test Kit Instructions :
    extended-test-kit-directions-t25081.html
    TFP Moderator TF100 Test Kit TF100 TestKit YouTube Channel PoolMath
    You're done SLAMing when:
    1)You lose 1ppm or less FC overnight, & 2)You have .5ppm CC's or less, & 3)your water is clear.

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    It might be test error due to copper. Is there any reason to think that there is copper in the water?

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Butterfly
    Quote Originally Posted by DorsalSpine
    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieH
    CH - Calcium Hardness


    Rinse the sample tube with pool water.
    Fill the sample tube with pool water to the 25 ml mark. The top of the sample will be curved. This curve is called a meniscus. The bottom of the meniscus should be level with the 25 ml mark.
    Add 20 drops of R-0010 and swirl to mix.
    .
    Are you sure about the 20 drops of R-0010? I haven't done this in awhile but I thought it was 2 drops.
    2 drops is wrong, RobbieH is correct. It is 20 drops of R-0010.

    You can confirm in Extended Test Kit Instructions :
    extended-test-kit-directions-t25081.html
    Sorry for the confusion, I must have been thinking of a different test. I'll have to remember the extended instructions that are online next time.
    16,500 gallon, 18" x 38" Grecian; IG Vinyl, Hayward DE

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW
    It might be test error due to copper. Is there any reason to think that there is copper in the water?
    There shouldnt be. I tested just the tap water the same way as i tested the pool water and came back with 150. I can test the pool water again trying the copper way and see if it comes up with something different
    9k gallon concrete in ground pool
    800 gallon spa with small waterfall spillover into pool
    intellichlor IC40 SWG
    intelliflo variable speed pump ran 8am to 330pm @ 40GPM and 3pm to 5pm @ 65GPM
    Pentair quad DE filter
    "the pool cleaner" suction 2 wheel vacuum
    Full California sun all day
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Getting back to your original question about what could cause CH to rise, I wonder if it could come from the plaster.

    I've been concerned about this with my pool. I've seen my CH rise even when I haven't added tap water (which is about 150 CH) for a couple of months and I never use Cal-Hypo.
    9,200 gal. Gunite Luna Quartz French Grey pool with spill over spa, two fountains on tanning ledge (rarely used)
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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Is the pool fiberglass or concrete?

    Do you have a gas heater?

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Quote Originally Posted by mxrider131
    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW
    It might be test error due to copper. Is there any reason to think that there is copper in the water?
    There shouldnt be. I tested just the tap water the same way as i tested the pool water and came back with 150. I can test the pool water again trying the copper way and see if it comes up with something different
    You may be in a similar situation to me (my fill water is 140). Evaporation concentrates the CH because water is removed by this process, but calcium stays, and the refill water adds calcium. Splashout on the other hand helps a little because that removes water and calcium which gets replaced by fill water with lower CH, but in my case evaporation slowly "wins" over time, so my CH slowly rises.

    I combat this by making my wintertime "pool project" getting as much rainwater in the pool as possible. Since my pool went in in 2011, I have not yet had to do a partial drain/replace to get the CH down, I'm sitting at about 400 right now, and hope to bring that down over the winter.

    Don
    16K gal IG 16'x28' pebble since 2011; Pentair Easytouch; Sta-Rite Intellipro VS pump; Sta-Rite 400 sq. ft. cartridge (System 3); 6 Heliocol Solar Panels; Aquamatic Cover; Legend pressure-side cleaner with Hayward booster pump; TF100 Test Kit.

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesW
    Is the pool fiberglass or concrete?

    Do you have a gas heater?
    concrete pool. electric heater
    9k gallon concrete in ground pool
    800 gallon spa with small waterfall spillover into pool
    intellichlor IC40 SWG
    intelliflo variable speed pump ran 8am to 330pm @ 40GPM and 3pm to 5pm @ 65GPM
    Pentair quad DE filter
    "the pool cleaner" suction 2 wheel vacuum
    Full California sun all day
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Weird thing is I drained about a foot of water from my pool 4-5 months ago for a different reason that the pool store gave me and CH is still this high. Got a good amount of scale build up around surface line of pool and at waterfall (which i thought was normal) and I have to clean SWG like every 4 months and its packed with calcium every time. I guess it makes sense. Just wanted to make sure the other chemicals Im adding (conditioner and borax) to balance my pool didnt give me false readings for my CH. I'm gonna test it again tomorrow and if it comes back the same I'll just have to drain 1/2 the pool and go from there. thanks for the replies
    9k gallon concrete in ground pool
    800 gallon spa with small waterfall spillover into pool
    intellichlor IC40 SWG
    intelliflo variable speed pump ran 8am to 330pm @ 40GPM and 3pm to 5pm @ 65GPM
    Pentair quad DE filter
    "the pool cleaner" suction 2 wheel vacuum
    Full California sun all day
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Are you adding conditioner or stabilizer? It should just be straight powdered cyanuric acid granules, over 95% /w a small amount of inert ingredients.
    Adding it by weight, in a sock tied near a return. NOT in the skimmer, or dumped elsewhere. Allow 1 week for it to register on the test, but right away for effectiveness as soon as It's fully dissolved.
    Also, are you testing your cya outside, with the tube at waist level, your back to full sun?

    Are you following the SWCG guide in PS?
    With a CYA of 20 and so much scaling, it doesn't sound like it. Please go read up on it pool school.
    Keeping pH in line and scaling to a minimum is immensely critical with an SWCG, even more with plaster in the mix. It can be done at high ch, you just have to stay on it.

    Can you post a full set of test results please?
    Do this before you make any more changes and we can advise you as to your next and best course of action to take, so as to get things in line.

    Thx.
    Hang in there!
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Also, I'd like to point out these specific notes from the extended test kit directions.

    If you expect that your CH level is extremely
    high, you can do the test so that each drop is
    25, instead of 10, to speed up the process and
    save on reagent usage. Use 10 ml of pool water,
    10 drops of R-0010, 3 drops of R-0011L, and
    multiply the number of drops of R-0012 by 25
    to get your CH level.
    Measuring high CH levels is much easier and
    more precise if you use a magnetic stirrer.
    Thanks for reading... - Tony
    Da' Pool: Intex 15'x42" 3284gal AGP EasySet (Inflatable Ring) - (Summer 2014: 27' round EW /w 6.5' deep end @ 22,500gal)
    Pump & Cart Mod: 1000gph Cart. 5ft² - 2 nylons, 24/7 OP. Traps bugs/bits, lasts longer/cleans easier = Happier Pool Owner!!
    The Bible for a "Trouble Free Pool" life = PoolSchool, the BBB method a TF100 test kit(Recommend Kits Compared). - Cleaning a Sand Filter
    Water looks like GLASS, if yours doesn't...SLAM IT! Feels nice and never been happier!!! :D

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    I'm just starting to follow the "water Balance For SWG" guide on this site so im in the process of getting my pool in balance. Since my CYA was less than 20 I added 4lbs of this http://www.lesliespool.com/Home/Pool...ers/12302.html on Sunday. I followed the instructions on the box and mixed it into a 5 gallon bucket and added it straight to the skimmer return in increments so hopefully that wont screw it up too much. I guess I know better for next time now. I noticed yesterday that my ph and TA were low so I added Borax to increase them. Here are my full test of results i just did

    Salt 3600
    FC 5
    CC 0
    PH 7.5
    TA 60
    CYA 65
    CH 1250

    are you saying it will be ok to have that high of CH as long as I keep all my other chemicals in balance? Or am i better off just draining half the pool and starting over? I'd like to avoid draining if possible cause its pricey and a pain but I will do it if i need to. thanks for your help
    9k gallon concrete in ground pool
    800 gallon spa with small waterfall spillover into pool
    intellichlor IC40 SWG
    intelliflo variable speed pump ran 8am to 330pm @ 40GPM and 3pm to 5pm @ 65GPM
    Pentair quad DE filter
    "the pool cleaner" suction 2 wheel vacuum
    Full California sun all day
    TF-100 test kit

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    Keep your pH at or below 7.5 .....no higher.

    Have you experienced any calcium scaling to this point?

    What is the CH of your fill water?
    Dave S.
    42k vinyl and concrete pool, 1.5hp pump, 140gpm filter
    TFTestkits , PoolMath , Pool School

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    Re: what causes ch to rise?

    I need to make a correction to the FC. I thought the chlorine test thats with the ph one in the kit was FC and the colors must of been a little darker than I thought. I did the actual FC test and it took me 20 drops so my FC is 10. CC is still 0. So its high and might have to do with me raising the cya so much in one sitting. My swg runs at 40% for 7 hours a day right now. If I turn it down to 0% for a day and retest would that be enough to get it down to 5 or does it take awhile to lower the FC? Ch of the fill water is 150. I'll get the pummel stone and clean off the white scaling on the water line and the waterfall from before to see if any new scaling forms.
    9k gallon concrete in ground pool
    800 gallon spa with small waterfall spillover into pool
    intellichlor IC40 SWG
    intelliflo variable speed pump ran 8am to 330pm @ 40GPM and 3pm to 5pm @ 65GPM
    Pentair quad DE filter
    "the pool cleaner" suction 2 wheel vacuum
    Full California sun all day
    TF-100 test kit

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