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Thread: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency.....

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    Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency.....

    After living with new pool gear for a while, I find myself "going backward" on several fronts for various reasons.

    My personal environment (I realize everyones is different) is challenging to make run efficiently.

    4 years ago I put in - salt system, new master temp 400 heater, Jandy Aqualink 8 control system, Jandy epump 2.0 HP, Pentair quad de 60......

    The variable RPM pump was a challenge in a couple of ways.
    I was unable to realize the max savings out of a variable speed pump because the saltwater cell requires a significant amount of flow to activate.
    Min wattage to get the cell to lite up was about 250 with a fresh clean DE filter.
    I was also constantly balancing skimming function and GPM required for the cell to work as the filter pressure started to build.
    A few pounds of pressure makes a huge difference in the parameters for those 2 variables to function correctly.

    I live very close to a large freeway interchange and there is a great deal of dust infusion into the system. (I have a house full of air cleaners)
    Im also surrounded by vegetation and am fighting a war on two fronts and with a DE filter- I was losing.

    Within a week or 2 so I was unable to get any skimming function and had to bump to about 350-400 watts to keep any skimming action functioning
    In my environment my DE would quickly get enough dirt to slow flow down enough to effect the overall performance requiring daily bumps in RPM to keep it all working.

    Filter cleaning became a 6 week (at best) interval and between the trips take down the filter, clean the grids in solution, reassembly - to the store and dealing with old DE, magic lube and the time - it was a sub-optimal experience.

    Unless I wanted to put 1 HP back into the pump and "force" the system - but why have a variable speed pump if you are going to run at the same speed all the time to overcome system inefficiency?

    A larger filter with lower resistance allows lower back pressures and greater flow at a given RPM.

    I stepped back in time from a Quad De60 back to a much larger 30" sand filter filled with zeo.
    I'm also backing out of my saltwater system and going back to chlorinator so I can run my pool at a constant low RPM.

    I had a leak form where the skimmer met the wall and had to jackhammer chop and grind the the old one out.
    When I was in the area of the skimmer I found a littany of mystery plumbing and bizarre connections choking my otherwise 2" plumbing down to about 1.5 inches at the skimmer.

    With the restriction removed, the larger filter, and some 90' bends smoothed out and the new skimmers door weir vs the old lousy American products "sticky" weir and basket setup - I can now get decent skimming function at about 90-100 watts or 1200 RPM.

    I don't have to worry about the salt cell engaging with an inline chlorinator and my setup has about 2-3 pounds of pressure when running in this mode and it runs in near silence.

    I was worried the zeo wouldn't cut it as I was used to DE water quality, but its pretty amazing what I'm seeing (the whole see a quarter in the deep end etc.. etc.. I know what clear water is supposed to look like and I have it). at least in my application and in my use case- the Zeo is beating DE hands down.

    The net result is that my water has never been clearer, looking at the water through the light at night there is no discernible diff between the DE filter and the bigger sand one filled with zeo, and now that I have a slow low 24x7 pump run the overall cleanliness is superior and back washing takes minutes and is a much cleaner quicker process.

    I'm sure removing the choked plumbing helps out, but that did nothing to alleviate the frequency of needed filter cleaning to get everything to flow at an efficient RPM.

    I'm very happy with the functionality of my new setup and resulting sparkling clear resort quality hot pool water - at beer budget operating costs and 8 minute filter wash.

    Uncle Dave
    20K Gallon Gunnite pool/900 Gallon in ground Spa/2HP WhisperflowSpa
    Pentair Master temp 400/Hayward Sand WZeobrite/Jandy RS-8 Aqualink/Jandy 2HP Epump
    12 - 4x10 Panels/Zodiac G3-T5 / BBB

  2. Back To Top    #2

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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    IMO sand filters work a lot better than people think, at least those that haven't had sand filters.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Melt In The Sun's Avatar
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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    I'm not that familiar with the Jandy VSPs, but it looks like it's similar to the intelliflo VS, where you only can set an RPM rather than setting a desired flow rate (VF). I bet that would have been easier for you...the end result would have been the same as far as power consumption, but it would have been less work for you.
    11,200 gal, Pebble-Tec; Tristar 2-speed 1hp - Swimclear 325 ft2 cart - SWG - A & A in-floor cleaner - Heat pump. For the poolside cooking, a Yoder Wichita and a Big Steel Keg!
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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    Quote Originally Posted by Melt In The Sun
    I'm not that familiar with the Jandy VSPs, but it looks like it's similar to the intelliflo VS, where you only can set an RPM rather than setting a desired flow rate (VF). I bet that would have been easier for you...the end result would have been the same as far as power consumption, but it would have been less work for you.
    A tiny bit less work.

    Variable flow is nice because you can set the min once and the pump keeps computing for the increased pressure.

    That setup would do nothing to change the filter cleaning interval though, only remove the need for me to bump the speed with my remote control every week.

    Within weeks my pump would be roaring at 1-2 HP to overcome the pressure. Hardly worth having that nice of a pump just to force the system.

    UD
    20K Gallon Gunnite pool/900 Gallon in ground Spa/2HP WhisperflowSpa
    Pentair Master temp 400/Hayward Sand WZeobrite/Jandy RS-8 Aqualink/Jandy 2HP Epump
    12 - 4x10 Panels/Zodiac G3-T5 / BBB

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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieH
    IMO sand filters work a lot better than people think, at least those that haven't had sand filters.
    Agreed.

    I grew up with them and always remember them being fine.

    In California "nobody uses those out here". "We all use DE".

    Yeah.... well Ive used DE for almost 15 years now and am happy to go back to (very large comparitively) sand filter.

    The pool guys out here love DE for some reason....


    UD
    20K Gallon Gunnite pool/900 Gallon in ground Spa/2HP WhisperflowSpa
    Pentair Master temp 400/Hayward Sand WZeobrite/Jandy RS-8 Aqualink/Jandy 2HP Epump
    12 - 4x10 Panels/Zodiac G3-T5 / BBB

  6. Back To Top    #6
    techguy's Avatar
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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    I will say, the best thing I added to me DE filtered pool was the PoolSkim device. I have crepe myrtle blooms on my pool every day and when the skimmer is running, the float into the skimmer but take along time to get sucked down into the filter and when they do, my pressures rise faster. Now the PS skims them and other floating debris into a bag, not my filter, within 30 minutes of them hitting the surface of the pool when the pump is running. I now get very little debris on my pool floor and in my DE. The DE charge lasts at least twice as long between bumps. I think I need to bump it about twice a month.

    -- Guy --
    10K gallons in 21' Round 52 inch wall Aqualeader AG, Hayward Power Flow LX 1.5 HP pump motor, Hayward Perflex EC50AC DE filter w/Cellulose, Wide mouth skimmer, 2013 new Diver Dan (craigslist) to replace the faded old Hayward AquaBug. TF-100

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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    Quote Originally Posted by techguy
    I will say, the best thing I added to me DE filtered pool was the PoolSkim device. I have crepe myrtle blooms on my pool every day and when the skimmer is running, the float into the skimmer but take along time to get sucked down into the filter and when they do, my pressures rise faster. Now the PS skims them and other floating debris into a bag, not my filter, within 30 minutes of them hitting the surface of the pool when the pump is running. I now get very little debris on my pool floor and in my DE. The DE charge lasts at least twice as long between bumps. I think I need to bump it about twice a month.
    I have a pool skim as well.

    If you go back and search my posts youll see I was a supporter of it years ago.

    That said, pool skims don't do anything about dust - which is my big problem.

    UD
    20K Gallon Gunnite pool/900 Gallon in ground Spa/2HP WhisperflowSpa
    Pentair Master temp 400/Hayward Sand WZeobrite/Jandy RS-8 Aqualink/Jandy 2HP Epump
    12 - 4x10 Panels/Zodiac G3-T5 / BBB

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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    Quote Originally Posted by Davegvg
    In California "nobody uses those out here". "We all use DE".

    Yeah.... well Ive used DE for almost 15 years now and am happy to go back to (very large comparitively) sand filter.

    The pool guys out here love DE for some reason....
    Which is kind of funny considering how sensitive CA people are about anything remotely considered hazardous or polluting.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
    If TFP has helped you, please click to SUPPORT TFP!

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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieH
    Quote Originally Posted by Davegvg
    In California "nobody uses those out here". "We all use DE".

    Yeah.... well Ive used DE for almost 15 years now and am happy to go back to (very large comparitively) sand filter.

    The pool guys out here love DE for some reason....
    Which is kind of funny considering how sensitive CA people are about anything remotely considered hazardous or polluting.
    For many it's a good choice. (especially for pool guys who want to charge their customers to clean them)

    I don't think its optimal for me in my environment in this location.

    UD
    20K Gallon Gunnite pool/900 Gallon in ground Spa/2HP WhisperflowSpa
    Pentair Master temp 400/Hayward Sand WZeobrite/Jandy RS-8 Aqualink/Jandy 2HP Epump
    12 - 4x10 Panels/Zodiac G3-T5 / BBB

  10. Back To Top    #10

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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    I have a similar setup to you and EVERYBODY is blown away at my water clarity - also the ease of maintenance is CRAZY EASY. If I had a robot, man I would be spend LESS THAN 10 minutes a week. All keeping in perfect balance and barely spending any money on chemicals. My total CHEM cost this year is less than $100.
    14,750 GAL IG Fiberglass (16 x 33) NE Ohio || Jandy 1HP 2 speed Pump || Waterco MultiCyclone 16 Centrifugal pre-filter (removed due to not working with sand filter) || 30" 575 Lb. Sand Filter || AquaCal 140K BTU Heat Pump || Solar Cover || Inter-fab Adrenaline Slide || GLI Monsoon Solar Cover Reel || K-2006C Test Kit || BBB with Liquid Chlorine Stenner Injection || Rayner Mighty Mesh Winter Cover

  11. Back To Top    #11

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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    Agreed. I love my robot. If it were to die, I'd go right back out and get a new one, but maybe a more aggressive/heavy one since my pool is so large, and I would like to have one with remote control.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    Quote Originally Posted by toofast
    I have a similar setup to you and EVERYBODY is blown away at my water clarity - also the ease of maintenance is CRAZY EASY. If I had a robot, man I would be spend LESS THAN 10 minutes a week. All keeping in perfect balance and barely spending any money on chemicals. My total CHEM cost this year is less than $100.
    I sure felt like I was taking a risk moving in this direction, but its worked out great.

    I had to sign an indemnity clause to get someone to plumb the filter in because they were "sure" it wouldn't work in this area.

    The pool company that did the filter work told me that the dust was too fine to be caught in a sand filter and I'd forever be swimming through clouds of dust that would just recirculate...What a bunch of balderdash.

    Maybe regular sand wouldn't filter it (maybe) - but the zeo sure does- like a champ. I curious whose glass you are using- if I ever have zeo trouble maybe Ill try it.

    You really do have to wash out the dust it comes with before you filter or you are in big trouble.
    It took nearly 10 full minutes of high speed backwashing three times to clear the water- before I could "filter" it The stuff that flushed was truly nasty.


    UD
    20K Gallon Gunnite pool/900 Gallon in ground Spa/2HP WhisperflowSpa
    Pentair Master temp 400/Hayward Sand WZeobrite/Jandy RS-8 Aqualink/Jandy 2HP Epump
    12 - 4x10 Panels/Zodiac G3-T5 / BBB

  13. Back To Top    #13

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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    I have trees right over my pool - tons of pollen. I have plenty of dust, we do live in Texas after all. My pool is crystal clear. The pool is 20' from my house, and is 10' deep, and I can clearly see the main drain from my window.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
    If TFP has helped you, please click to SUPPORT TFP!

  14. Back To Top    #14

    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    Quote Originally Posted by RobbieH
    I have trees right over my pool - tons of pollen. I have plenty of dust, we do live in Texas after all. My pool is crystal clear. The pool is 20' from my house, and is 10' deep, and I can clearly see the main drain from my window.
    ...AND a 44K gallon pool with a 10 ft end.

    Sweet.

    UD
    20K Gallon Gunnite pool/900 Gallon in ground Spa/2HP WhisperflowSpa
    Pentair Master temp 400/Hayward Sand WZeobrite/Jandy RS-8 Aqualink/Jandy 2HP Epump
    12 - 4x10 Panels/Zodiac G3-T5 / BBB

  15. Back To Top    #15

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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    Since I had it handy...



    It was windy when I took the pic, or the drain would be very clearly visible, not just a blob.

    Now that I'm considering going to a 2 speed pump, I'm getting comments that the low speed might not have enough GPM. Great.
    Built in 1957 44,000 gallon in-ground, Wet Edge Primera Stone in Sky Blue, Intelliflo VF Pump, 600 lb. Pentair Triton II TR-100 Sand Filter, CircuPool RG 60 Plus SWG, TF-100 test kit
    If TFP has helped you, please click to SUPPORT TFP!

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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    Quote Originally Posted by Davegvg
    Quote Originally Posted by toofast
    I have a similar setup to you and EVERYBODY is blown away at my water clarity - also the ease of maintenance is CRAZY EASY. If I had a robot, man I would be spend LESS THAN 10 minutes a week. All keeping in perfect balance and barely spending any money on chemicals. My total CHEM cost this year is less than $100.
    I sure felt like I was taking a risk moving in this direction, but its worked out great.

    I had to sign an indemnity clause to get someone to plumb the filter in because they were "sure" it wouldn't work in this area.

    The pool company that did the filter work told me that the dust was too fine to be caught in a sand filter and I'd forever be swimming through clouds of dust that would just recirculate...What a bunch of balderdash.

    Maybe regular sand wouldn't filter it (maybe) - but the zeo sure does- like a champ. I curious whose glass you are using- if I ever have zeo trouble maybe Ill try it.

    You really do have to wash out the dust it comes with before you filter or you are in big trouble.
    It took nearly 10 full minutes of high speed backwashing three times to clear the water- before I could "filter" it The stuff that flushed was truly nasty.


    UD
    Honestly I thought I was using ZEO as well...looking at my contract it says glass pak...now I am wondering.
    14,750 GAL IG Fiberglass (16 x 33) NE Ohio || Jandy 1HP 2 speed Pump || Waterco MultiCyclone 16 Centrifugal pre-filter (removed due to not working with sand filter) || 30" 575 Lb. Sand Filter || AquaCal 140K BTU Heat Pump || Solar Cover || Inter-fab Adrenaline Slide || GLI Monsoon Solar Cover Reel || K-2006C Test Kit || BBB with Liquid Chlorine Stenner Injection || Rayner Mighty Mesh Winter Cover

  17. Back To Top    #17

    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    In looking at Glass as a filter medium I'm struck by the following thoughts.

    1. Aren't glass and sand really one and the same on some level? Maybe glass is refined more somehow, or in the process of become glass from sand it inherits other properties.

    2. Ecosmarte the main pimp for glass has a tendency to be less than fully honest about its products..., but I think others are selling it as well so maybe glass as a "medium" is larger in scope.

    In any case I looked at zeobrite under a low power microscope and it is different than sand.

    It's interesting the number of people that have trouble with zeos with this and that water problem "because of the filter media."

    UD
    20K Gallon Gunnite pool/900 Gallon in ground Spa/2HP WhisperflowSpa
    Pentair Master temp 400/Hayward Sand WZeobrite/Jandy RS-8 Aqualink/Jandy 2HP Epump
    12 - 4x10 Panels/Zodiac G3-T5 / BBB

  18. Back To Top    #18
    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    Quote Originally Posted by Davegvg
    I'm also backing out of my saltwater system and going back to chlorinator so I can run my pool at a constant low RPM.
    So no one had a comment about this little gem

    Are you saying you are now using pucks in a feeder? In a part of the country that does not close their pool?
    What are you plans when the CYA gets too high? Drain and replace? RO treatment?

    Or are you using a bleach feed system?
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
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  19. Back To Top    #19

    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    Quote Originally Posted by jblizzle
    Quote Originally Posted by Davegvg
    I'm also backing out of my saltwater system and going back to chlorinator so I can run my pool at a constant low RPM.
    So no one had a comment about this little gem

    Are you saying you are now using pucks in a feeder? In a part of the country that does not close their pool?
    What are you plans when the CYA gets too high? Drain and replace? RO treatment?

    Or are you using a bleach feed system?
    Before the salt cell I stuck with BBB. I'll probably just go back.

    I plan on using the pucks occasionally when I need a harder hit.

    I get one RO about every three years mainly to keep TDS down as I find high TDS is hard on the water heater and sticks its thermal regulator.

    Salt has its issues as well pushing PH and being hungry for acid all the time- Every pool water scheme has its ups and down, but by and large I never have water issues.

    UD
    20K Gallon Gunnite pool/900 Gallon in ground Spa/2HP WhisperflowSpa
    Pentair Master temp 400/Hayward Sand WZeobrite/Jandy RS-8 Aqualink/Jandy 2HP Epump
    12 - 4x10 Panels/Zodiac G3-T5 / BBB

  20. Back To Top    #20
    Mod Squad jblizzle's Avatar
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    Re: Moving pool "backwards in tech to improve efficiency..

    OK, just wanted to be sure you had not stepped back into the dark ages with no understanding of the CYA/FC relationship
    Jason, TFP Moderator
    18k IG pebblesheen pool, Hayward ProLogic P4 w/ T-15 SWG, Pentair 1HP 2-speed Superflo, Hayward 6020 DE filter
    500 sqft Heliocol solar panels, ThePoolCleaner, TF-100 test kit w/ SpeedStir
    Pool School + Test Kit + PoolMath = A TROUBLE FREE POOL
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