White film in Liquidator tubing

[Water_man]

After 24 hours of operation, the PVC tubing between the LQ's outlet and the pump has become covered by a white, cloudy film or suspension. This includes the flow meter. This was also reported recently by smuggs and maybe others too.
I wonder is this common? If it is, then there's a concern of PVC tubing degradation and contamination of pool water by unknown and possibly unwanted compounds .

I've noticed that Hayward and others use Tygon tubing instead of the cheaper flexible PVC. Perhaps this is the answer.

 

[Sabot]

The chlorine is having a slight effect on the tubing. UV will attack the outer shell over time as well. It's not a huge concern, over time you can replace it as needed. The tubing is the cheapest priced tubing out there. I searched a while back for an affordable solution but settled on Tygon. Tygon is a good product. Down falls of Tygon is the price and it's soft wall. You will need to use some type of clamps. I keep some PVC tubing around for testing.

 

[Water_man]

In my post , I meant PE tubing, which comes with the Liquidator, not PVC.
I wonder if there's flexible PVC that can be used. PVC should be inert.

Pool supply stores sell parts for the Hayward Chlorinator model CL 200 and CL 220.
Kit contains two ft of a black tubing that looks like Tygon or PVC and it's definitely not soft. It's worth finding out what this tubing is made of because I assume Hayward wouldn't sell hardware that shows signs of degradation so quickly.

All those little hardware glitches associated with the LQ indicate that HASA doesn't consider it too seriously. Before I found on this forum that tftestkits sells LQ I had searched the Net where it can be sold. HASA's web site gave the impression that the LQ's marketing is mostly directed to California, where they sell and distribute their chlorine products. They never returned pre-sale email inquiries and the web site doesn't have any description of the difference between the two models. Finally I was able to get their sales manager over the phone. She admitted that they consider the LQ more as a gimmick designed to sell their "bread and butter" product, the chlorine, than as a product worthy of selling nationwide. That's too bad because all users agree that it does its job.

 

[Sabot]

Semi-rigid to hard tubing won't work. The compression fitting on the tank is too weak to allow you to get a good seat & seal. I cracked one of mine trying this. The only real tubing I found to work was Tygon. It works very well with the pool chems and has UV protection too. I would love to find a direct replacement for the PE tubing which comes with the unit for this tubing seat & seals perfect where the Tygon can be a bit weak by itself. The plus for the tubing which comes with the unit, it can be found at Home Depot and Lowes with ease and it is really cheap. Some users just replace as needed while others replace it yearly as part of their pool startup. I went to the extreme and bought Tygon.

The LQ does what it was designed for and for a lot less then any thing else out on the market today. As for glitches, I am not sure what would be considered a glitch with the LQ. The unit comes with the most economical components to keep it within reach. I have spent a lot to time and money testing out different things over the last many months on my Liquidator and pH Adjuster. I found that the initial design is solid. Currently, I am testing various small components such flow meters and pin valves. I still have the PVC ball valves in use too.

Yep, I agree that HASA bought the lineup to promote their chemical sales. That is a smart decision on their part. I believe they don’t know what they really have. As Dave sells more units, attention will be brought to the lineup. I can say when it came to replacing some items that I broke on the LQ, HASA support was excellent. As for their lack of pre-sale support, yep experienced it. The reality is that there are not many experts that know of the LQ. One good thing is that the information up on the website does a good job talking about the LQ. As more LQ units get into use, we here are building a nice support group for the product.

 

[Water_man]

Thank you for this detailed response.

Semi-rigid to hard tubing won't work. The compression fitting on the tank is too weak to allow you to get a good seat & seal. I cracked one of mine trying this. The only real tubing I found to work was Tygon.

Did you find a 1/4" ID Tygon tubing? Where? Is it transparent?

As for glitches, I am not sure what would be considered a glitch with the LQ. The unit comes with the most economical components to keep it within reach.

Here's what I found so far:
1. The deterioration of the PE tubing.
2. Leaking connections of the flow meter.
3. Check valves that limit the flow in the allowed direction.
4. Saddle fittings (the 3/8" fittings) that leak.
5. New users should be advised by HASA to:
a. Wrap Teflon tape around the drilled 3/8" hole prior to insertion of the fitting.
b. Back wash their DE filter before installation and not to charge it until everything works because most likely they will get DE discharge into the pool during the start up process when the pump loses its prime and the system is not air tight yet.

I wouldn't mind paying a few more dollars for a more solid product.

I found that the initial design is solid.

The working principle and the design are brilliant, although the designer is in the dark regarding the chemistry involved. For instance, in the patent and on the web site they say that the white deposit which accumulates on the bottom with time is sodium chloride (table salt) and in the papers that come with the LQ they talk about calcium.
In real life, the performance of a working system is evaluated by its weakest components.
The weak hardware components of the LQ are not on par with its great design.

Currently, I am testing various small components such flow meters and pin valves.

What's wrong with the original flow meter? Do you want to replace it because you want it to show real flow rate numbers in gpm? Does it also decay with time?

I can say when it came to replacing some items that I broke on the LQ, HASA support was excellent.

Whom did you talk to there? I also need a replacement for my saddle fittings.
After trying to tighten and loosen a few times in fighting the leak, I can't tighten
the clamp any more.

As for their lack of pre-sale support, yep experienced it. The reality is that there are not many experts that know of the LQ. One good thing is that the information up on the website does a good job talking about the LQ. As more LQ units get into use, we here are building a nice support group for the product.

I totally agree. I think there's not as much accumulation of LQ experience elsewhere as that available here in this forum. It's also great that Dave sells it.

 

[Water_man]

Selecting Tygon tubing

Sabot, I saw that you chose Tygon UV Resistant R-3400 tubing . I checked the different types of Tygon available and I chose Ultra Chemical Resistant 2075. You mentioned that your Tygon tubing is soft and needed clamping. The 2075 has a Durometer Hardness of 72 as compared to 64 for the R-3400, so it's harder.

Another advantage is that the 2075 is transparent as compared to the R-3400 which is black. I prefer to see what's going on inside.
I ordered a few feet at sidewindercomputers.com and I'll report the results shortly after I install. USplastics is out of stock.

I don't think that we are overdoing it because the visible degradation of the PE tubing is not just an eyesore. This most likely causes contamination of the pool water. Based on my pump flow rate, the FC enrichment at a measured time during night time, and the ratio of the diameters, I estimated the FC level in the water flowing from the tank into the pump as 94 ppm. It seems like this high level kills not only the most nasty algae but also PE.

Once we have positive results I'd suggest to Dave to purchase a stock of this tubing
and for a few bucks added to the sales price to substitute the original tubing by Tygon. This would be a great service.

 

[cruzmisl]

I got that white stuff too after a while. I'm on my 2nd season and usually replace the tubing once a year. I am OK spending $10 a year on tubing. I don't think the Tygon will be any better though. It's a deposit on the inner wall of the tube, kind of like a calcium deposit. I'll bet good money, regardless of the tubing you get, it will yield the same result. My stuff is in the sun most of the day too. Also once a year I'll soak everything in a sol'n of muriatiuc acid/water. It fizzes like alka seltzer and then it's clean.

 

[Aquaman95]

I would suggest that drilling and tapping in NPT x tube fittings is the best way to get rid of the saddle clamps. 1/4 MNPT x 3/8" OD polypro tube fittings are readily available with viton or EPDM o-rings. Viton is better.

1/4 NPT taps are available at Home Depot...just tap with a 7/16" drill bit and thread them in. Into an elbow is better because there is more "meat" to work with. If you only have a drill with a 3/8" check get the 7/16" bit with a turned down shaft.

This install is more permanent and won't leak. I realize that some folks may be intimidated drilling and tapping their plumbing but it's not much more effort than the saddle clamps.

PE tubing will work as long as it's black. The clear stuff will degrade in UV light.

 

[Aquaman95]

I got that white stuff too after a while. I'm on my 2nd season and usually replace the tubing once a year. I am OK spending $10 a year on tubing. I don't think the Tygon will be any better though. It's a deposit on the inner wall of the tube, kind of like a calcium deposit. I'll bet good money, regardless of the tubing you get, it will yield the same result. My stuff is in the sun most of the day too. Also once a year I'll soak everything in a sol'n of muriatiuc acid/water. It fizzes like alka seltzer and then it's clean.

It's sodium and it's very common with commercial injection systems. Regular tubing replacement is the key. Eventually, and especially if a lot of air enters the system it will completely block up the tubing. It also seems to dry out the tubing over time so it will get brittle from the inside out even if the outside is UV resistant. The only kind I've seen resistant to the drying effect and the UV effect is Kynar (PVDF) but it will still get the salt buildup.

 

[Water_man]

I got that white stuff too after a while. I'm on my 2nd season and usually replace the tubing once a year. I am OK spending $10 a year on tubing. I don't think the Tygon will be any better though. It's a deposit on the inner wall of the tube, kind of like a calcium deposit. I'll bet good money, regardless of the tubing you get, it will yield the same result. My stuff is in the sun most of the day too. Also once a year I'll soak everything in a sol'n of muriatiuc acid/water. It fizzes like alka seltzer and then it's clean.

I appreciate your valuable remarks. You're among the first who installed the LQ and your experience has been very helpful.

As to the nature of this white stuff:
Why would a water solution running through a tubing leave a solid deposit unless it is formed by a reaction between the tubing material and the stuff in the water? That "stuff" is 100 ppm FC. PE wasn’t designed to handle it.
If this is just a deposit of dissolved solids in the water then by now it should have covered the tank's walls at the upper part as well, where you have the same water composition as that running in the affected tubing of the “outlet” side. But the tank is made of PVC, not PE, and it's not attacked by FC. I had a piece of PE tubing floating in the upper water part and in no time it was affected too.

I'll bet good money, regardless of the tubing you get, it will yield the same result.

So, what is your wager?

I'd rather pay now the extra $20 and not worry about possible water contamination.

Finally, if Hayward uses Tygon (or PVC, I'm not sure) in their Chlorinator tubing connection, they must have had a good reason to do so.

I think pretty soon this forum will become the “Hall of Fame of Liquidator Experts”.

 

[Water_man]

I would suggest that drilling and tapping in NPT x tube fittings is the best way to get rid of the saddle clamps. 1/4 MNPT x 3/8" OD polypro tube fittings are readily available with viton or EPDM o-rings. Viton is better.

1/4 NPT taps are available at Home Depot...just tap with a 7/16" drill bit and thread them in. Into an elbow is better because there is more "meat" to work with. If you only have a drill with a 3/8" check get the 7/16" bit with a turned down shaft.

This install is more permanent and won't leak. I realize that some folks may be intimidated drilling and tapping their plumbing but it's not much more effort than the saddle clamps.

PE tubing will work as long as it's black. The clear stuff will degrade in UV light.

Thanks for following the Liquidator hassles threads. Finally we have here a new solution for those leaking saddles
Where do you get those tube fittings with Viton? Does a PVC pipe have enough "meat" for a new tapped hole?

I already got a Hayward saddle fitting. It has a better design than that supplied by HASA. I'll try it first and if it doesn't work I'll try what you suggested.

 

[Water_man]

It's sodium and it's very common with commercial injection systems. Regular tubing replacement is the key. Eventually, and especially if a lot of air enters the system it will completely block up the tubing. It also seems to dry out the tubing over time so it will get brittle from the inside out even if the outside is UV resistant. The only kind I've seen resistant to the drying effect and the UV effect is Kynar (PVDF) but it will still get the salt buildup.

I think you meant sodium chloride (table salt.) Why would it settle there?
If you read my previous post in this thread you'd see it happened also in a PE tubing suspended in the upper level solution where there's no air flow or injection.

 

[Aquaman95]

I would suggest that drilling and tapping in NPT x tube fittings is the best way to get rid of the saddle clamps. 1/4 MNPT x 3/8" OD polypro tube fittings are readily available with viton or EPDM o-rings. Viton is better.

1/4 NPT taps are available at Home Depot...just tap with a 7/16" drill bit and thread them in. Into an elbow is better because there is more "meat" to work with. If you only have a drill with a 3/8" check get the 7/16" bit with a turned down shaft.

This install is more permanent and won't leak. I realize that some folks may be intimidated drilling and tapping their plumbing but it's not much more effort than the saddle clamps.

PE tubing will work as long as it's black. The clear stuff will degrade in UV light.

Thanks for following the Liquidator hassles threads. Finally we have here a new solution for those leaking saddles
Where do you get those tube fittings with Viton? Does a PVC pipe have enough "meat" for a new tapped hole?

I already got a Hayward saddle fitting. It has a better design than that supplied by HASA. I'll try it first and if it doesn't work I'll try what you suggested.

There are many that will work. I'm partial to the GA Murdock fittings in black polypro (UV Resistant) with viton o-rings. www.gamurdock.com

PVC pipe has enough meat but it is easiest to tap at an elbow or other fitting since there is more pipe depth to work with. The key in either scenario is not to tap down too far...just enough thread without exceeding the thread depth of the fitting.

 

[Aquaman95]

It's sodium and it's very common with commercial injection systems. Regular tubing replacement is the key. Eventually, and especially if a lot of air enters the system it will completely block up the tubing. It also seems to dry out the tubing over time so it will get brittle from the inside out even if the outside is UV resistant. The only kind I've seen resistant to the drying effect and the UV effect is Kynar (PVDF) but it will still get the salt buildup.

I think you meant sodium chloride (table salt.) Why would it settle there?
If you read my previous post in this thread you'd see it happened also in a PE tubing suspended in the upper level solution where there's no air flow or injection.

I can't explain why other than my hypothesis is that it happens when air enters the tube. Circulation systems with suction side air leaks get this buildup faster than others without air leaks.

I've seen 1" PVC completely block up over time.

I'm reasonably certain it isn't related to the tubing being PE. Every major chemical pump manufacturer uses PE as standard equipment for bleach injection and as I said I've seen it happen with PVDF as well as rigid PVC. I've never used Tygon because it's not rigid enough for the tube fittings I use.

If I'm not mistaken, the stock Liquidator tubing isn't PE to begin with, it's clear vinyl tubing which is a disaster for both UV and chlorine resistance. An easy way to tell is that the vinyl tubing when new is crystal clear and very soft. PE is milky and more rigid.

 

[cruzmisl]

Well, I won't bet a weeks pay but I'd wager a beer on it. As for where it comes from I have absolutely no idea. I am not a chemical expert by any means. I can say that at first the tube got cloudy, then turned opaque. When it got really bad last year I squeezed the tubing and had chunks flake off that were hard. I don't think it's related to the tube. All this talk about PVC, PE, NPT etc has me scratching my head. Too many acronyms to remember

 

[Water_man]

If I'm not mistaken, the stock Liquidator tubing isn't PE to begin with, it's clear vinyl tubing which is a disaster for both UV and chlorine resistance. An easy way to tell is that the vinyl tubing when new is crystal clear and very soft. PE is milky and more rigid.

Yeah, it must be vinyl. Whatever it's made of, I took a sample and suspended it in the pool water portion at the top of the Liquidator. It became white in a day. Running water through it didn't change the opaque color.
Conclusion: The vinyl tubing reacted with the water solution and possibly contaminants ran out. There's another possibility: the dissolved solids diffused into the vinyl matrix and became embedded there. I wouldn't rely on any hypothesis unless it's backed up by experimental facts. I wonder if the industries you mentioned provide any solid chemical analysis of what happens to their tubing systems. If not, all they provide is a description of a symptom, but not a full explanation to what it is and what causes it. I still believe that leaching out of contaminants is very possible.

 

[cruzmisl]

Maybe I'll order some of this tygon stuff and try my own expiriments.....

There's a beer riding on it

 

[Water_man]

All this talk about PVC, PE, NPT etc has me scratching my head. Too many acronyms to remember

As they say, the devine is in the details, right?
Speaking about details, only import quality beer as far as I'm concerned. :lol:

 

[JCJR]

It's sodium and it's very common with commercial injection systems. Regular tubing replacement is the key. Eventually, and especially if a lot of air enters the system it will completely block up the tubing. It also seems to dry out the tubing over time so it will get brittle from the inside out even if the outside is UV resistant. The only kind I've seen resistant to the drying effect and the UV effect is Kynar (PVDF) but it will still get the salt buildup.

I think you meant sodium chloride (table salt.) Why would it settle there?
If you read my previous post in this thread you'd see it happened also in a PE tubing suspended in the upper level solution where there's no air flow or injection.

I can't explain why other than my hypothesis is that it happens when air enters the tube. Circulation systems with suction side air leaks get this buildup faster than others without air leaks.

I've seen 1" PVC completely block up over time.

I'm reasonably certain it isn't related to the tubing being PE. Every major chemical pump manufacturer uses PE as standard equipment for bleach injection and as I said I've seen it happen with PVDF as well as rigid PVC. I've never used Tygon because it's not rigid enough for the tube fittings I use.

If I'm not mistaken, the stock Liquidator tubing isn't PE to begin with, it's clear vinyl tubing which is a disaster for both UV and chlorine resistance. An easy way to tell is that the vinyl tubing when new is crystal clear and very soft. PE is milky and more rigid.

Is the air entering the system a result of removing the check valves? My return lines got air in them and everytime I started the pump air bubbles would come out forcefully and blow my PoolSkim off and out of alignment. I replaced the check valve on the pressure side ("in" side) and no more air. I am starting to think that the check valves are neccesary for those who loose prime or get air in the system.

 

[Water_man]

Is the air entering the system a result of removing the check valves? My return lines got air in them and everytime I started the pump air bubbles would come out forcefully and blow my PoolSkim off and out of alignment. I replaced the check valve on the pressure side ("in" side) and no more air. I am starting to think that the check valves are neccesary for those who loose prime or get air in the system.

Check the two black tubing connectors of the flow meter. Do you see air bubbles coming from the threads? If you do, take them out and use Teflon tape and then reconnect.
If you don't see any air bubbles in your LQ tubing then the leak is maybe in either one of the two ends.
Is your LQ higher than the pump? Is the pump higher than the pool water level?