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Thread: Plumbing and Paver Patio

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    Plumbing and Paver Patio

    We are in the first stage of construction on our pool and the plumbing was finished today. It looks like the plumber was expecting us to pour a concrete patio because the plumbing on the front of the pool (where the patio will be) is not buried. On the back (no patio), he buried the plumbing. The concern we have is that we are not pouring a concrete patio; We are building a travertine paver patio instead. There will be compacted gravel as the paver base. Obviously we dont want the plumbing to be damaged, so I'm not sure what the best method is. Should the pipes be buried or can the gravel and pavers go over them? Does anyone have experience with a paver patio on a new build? We've got this question out to the pool builder and patio guy but wanted opinions from people here who have experience with this. Here's a pic of the plumbing and a link to the other thread documenting the build.

    http://www.troublefreepool.com/and-a...cs-t68574.html

    34x17 Freeform Gunite IGP and spa (approx 17k gal)
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    jv92red's Avatar
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    Wow! I have never seen that. Patio or no patio the pipes should be buried at least 8-10". Did you or the builder pull a permit with this build? City inspector would have never signed that off here and I'm in SoCal so there is no frost line for us to worry about. I beleive code for our build was 18" for water lines & electrical conduit, and 24" for gas line run.

    I had a paver deck put in for my build and you'll need a ~3"-4" compacted road base and another 1"-1 1/2" sand base then there will be the thickness of the paver itself. By those pictures it doesn't look like you have the room?

    edit: I just checked your other thread and it looks like a permit was pulled by the builder. Are there any plans attached to the permit? With ours there were the engineering plans and specifications about plumbing, steel, and concrete/shotcrete/gunite pool shell and a few other building code requirements related to pool building. If your in doubt about anything call the city building department and ask to speak with a city inspector and ask em about it. They will tell you what is code in your area - perhaps this is a non issue but I would want to hear that from a city inspector.
    15'x35' IG 16,500 gallons w/attached raised 18" spa continuous coping w/underneath spill and ledger stone wrapped, NPT mini pebble aqua blue w/2x pigment & abalone shell finish, 2"x24" travertine coping, 3x Jandy Color LED lights (2 in pool), Jandy Flo Pro 2HP VS pump, Jandy LXI (low NOx) 400K BTU heater, Jandy CL460 cartridge filter, Jandy AquaPure Ei SWG, Jandy Z4 automation with iAqualink and remote poolside PDA, 1,300 sqft Belgard Catalina paver deck with drainage, fire pit that matches the spa with travertine coping and wrapped in ledger stone, Elitewood insulated patio cover, Vinyl gates, back vinyl fence coming soon...
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    foobert's Avatar
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    Hmmmph. Even if there is enough elevation to build up an adequate layer of fill on top of the pipes, I'd insist that they peel the grass up to get rid of all the organic matter that will cause the fill to settle.
    ~john
    24.5K G, pebble, SuperFlo VS 1.5, 48sq DE filter, Hayward H250FDN, Autopilot RC-52, Poolvergnuegen & 3 daily swimmers in season.

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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    In pavers or travertine, if you will use a winter cover with anchors, they will usually need to go 18". You really want to make sure the pipes are at least 24" down from final grade.
    32K gal, gunite, French Gray DB, IntelliFlo VF, IntelliFlo, WhisperFlo, Quad DE 100 filter, IntelliTouch, IC-60 SWG, IntelliChem, Dolphin M5

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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    Yeah - it seemed odd to me too. I wasn't even thinking about code, I was mostly thinking about having enough room for the base and pavers and not damaging the pipes. I'm in central Texas, so I don't think frost is an issue either. I'm curious about code now though. An inspection should be forthcoming, so we'll see how that goes. I may call the city as suggested (if needed). I definitely thought it was odd.

    Thanks for the replies!
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    That pipe needs to be buried, IMO.

    You need to have the capability of grading, leveling and penetrating that area down maybe a foot or more when you install your base.....that has been taken away from you if the pipes stay where they are.

    I really am hesitant to criticize trade folks, but that really looks jack-leg. If not in technique, at least in planning.
    Dave S.
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    Have him redo it. They know better...
    +/-16k gallon IG pebblesheen pool with SWG, spa and waterfall, Hayward 2HP 2-speed Tri-star, Hayward 1.5HP Tri-star, Hayward 5030 Cartridge filter, Hayward H400 Heater, Sharkvac Robotic Cleaner

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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    Quote Originally Posted by TAMC93
    Have him redo it. They know better...
    Cool...good to know. I sent him an email and hope there's no argument in my future. Hopefully I'll hear back from him on Monday. I just saw your email too...thanks man!
    34x17 Freeform Gunite IGP and spa (approx 17k gal)
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    ProLogic PS-8 and AquaPod
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    No problem. Since I referred you, I thought I should at least reply.

    Make sure you follow the BBB Method and order the test kit. I did not and it set me back a couple of weeks! Still following and testing with no issues.
    +/-16k gallon IG pebblesheen pool with SWG, spa and waterfall, Hayward 2HP 2-speed Tri-star, Hayward 1.5HP Tri-star, Hayward 5030 Cartridge filter, Hayward H400 Heater, Sharkvac Robotic Cleaner

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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    How did it go?

    I'm looking forward to the contractor's reply on this one - it's a doozy of an obvious mistake, easily fixable though. I hope you hear "I'm very sorry, this was done by new person on our crew who was unsupervised during that period and it's totally wrong. It'll be corrected tomorrow. Let me take a few minutes to review everything else that we did here to ensure it's all properly done". I'd be thrilled with an answer like that, most other answers, not so much.
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoreswim
    How did it go?

    I'm looking forward to the contractor's reply on this one - it's a doozy of an obvious mistake, easily fixable though. I hope you hear "I'm very sorry, this was done by new person on our crew who was unsupervised during that period and it's totally wrong. It'll be corrected tomorrow. Let me take a few minutes to review everything else that we did here to ensure it's all properly done". I'd be thrilled with an answer like that, most other answers, not so much.
    Well, this is kind of a 2 part answer I guess. No - he did not have the response I hoped for. I had hoped to hear exactly what you said as well. However, he said he's been working with this plumber for 10+ years and that it would work out fine. He's not concerned about damaging the plumbing - he's done pavers and concrete over pipes like this many times and never had an issue. The landscaper building the patio backed that up and said it should be fine. (I hired him independently, he doesn't work for the PB) In fact - if we ever have a plumbing issue under the pavers, it will actually be easier to access like this.

    The PB has a good reputation (I checked extensively), and although I don't love his answer to this situation, I trust that he'll stand behind the work. He told me he would take care of the plumbing if it breaks, but he's never seen it break. He has great references and I know for a fact that he's taken care of stuff for an old coworker of mine on a pool that was far out of warranty. I'm going to put this one to bed for now I think. It's not exactly the outcome I hoped for, but as long as it doesn't create any long term issues, I think it'll be fine. Freezing isn't really a concern in central texas. As far as the organics and grading - the landscaper may end up doing some of that. The landscaper and pool builder are meeting on Friday during the gunite shoot - if any changes are needed, I'm sure it'll come up and we'll get it figured out.

    34x17 Freeform Gunite IGP and spa (approx 17k gal)
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    If there is a guarantee with pipe breakage then there still is a problem with grading. How are they going to get 4" of road base + 1" of sand + height of the paver and still have room to grade for drainage? If they short you on road base then the paver install may be compromised somewhat. I would call up a paver contractor and ask just to make sure. These measurements were stipulated in my contract so I had no worries.
    15'x35' IG 16,500 gallons w/attached raised 18" spa continuous coping w/underneath spill and ledger stone wrapped, NPT mini pebble aqua blue w/2x pigment & abalone shell finish, 2"x24" travertine coping, 3x Jandy Color LED lights (2 in pool), Jandy Flo Pro 2HP VS pump, Jandy LXI (low NOx) 400K BTU heater, Jandy CL460 cartridge filter, Jandy AquaPure Ei SWG, Jandy Z4 automation with iAqualink and remote poolside PDA, 1,300 sqft Belgard Catalina paver deck with drainage, fire pit that matches the spa with travertine coping and wrapped in ledger stone, Elitewood insulated patio cover, Vinyl gates, back vinyl fence coming soon...
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    I respectfully disagree with your pool builder.

    There is no way to get pavers on top of that pipe and have any compaction for subgrade material.

    More importantly, he has nonmetallic conduit running there too. I assume it for the pool lights. If it is not for the lights it is probably too close to the pool. If it is for the lights the code (NEC 300.5) requires that it be burred 18 inches underground. If covered by 2 inches of concrete or equivalent it can be twelve inches below grade. Pavers are not the equivalent of concrete, at least in the minds of the inspectors I've delt with. They talk about "encased in concrete."

    Remember he is going to have to put a mesh or rebar bonding grid under the pavers also.

    I gather you don't have Plumbing and pre gunite inspections?
    22k gallon IG pebblefina, Jandy 1.5 HP VS, Jandy CV Cartridge filter, Fafco solar panels, Polaris 360 supply side cleaner, waterfall

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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    Quote Originally Posted by gwegan
    I respectfully disagree with your pool builder.

    There is no way to get pavers on top of that pipe and have any compaction for subgrade material.

    More importantly, he has nonmetallic conduit running there too. I assume it for the pool lights. If it is not for the lights it is probably too close to the pool. If it is for the lights the code (NEC 300.5) requires that it be burred 18 inches underground. If covered by 2 inches of concrete or equivalent it can be twelve inches below grade. Pavers are not the equivalent of concrete, at least in the minds of the inspectors I've delt with. They talk about "encased in concrete."

    Remember he is going to have to put a mesh or rebar bonding grid under the pavers also.

    I gather you don't have Plumbing and pre gunite inspections?
    We do have plumbing/pre gunite inspections, but I'm not sure that code is enforced here. I actually emailed one of our city inspectors to ask him and he didn't indicate a concern. That said - I thin the inspection was today, so I'll see if I have a pass or not when I get home.
    34x17 Freeform Gunite IGP and spa (approx 17k gal)
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    Quote Originally Posted by jv92red
    If there is a guarantee with pipe breakage then there still is a problem with grading. How are they going to get 4" of road base + 1" of sand + height of the paver and still have room to grade for drainage? If they short you on road base then the paver install may be compromised somewhat. I would call up a paver contractor and ask just to make sure. These measurements were stipulated in my contract so I had no worries.
    The paver contractor and pool contractor are meeting here on Friday. Should be interesting.
    34x17 Freeform Gunite IGP and spa (approx 17k gal)
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    ProLogic PS-8 and AquaPod
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    Zach - A better representation of what they should be doing. With the lack of rock you encountered, they are being lazy.
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    Wow, that is different. Curious what the inspector says about it. I honestly don't think it's right. At all.
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    I would ask --nicely-- that the PB fix this. Those pipes need to be underground, not just laid on top then covered with your paver base.

    As has been noted above, any changes/additions to your pool related equipment will impact your plumbing. Your PB may ask for a change order fee for this, but I think that would be preferable to any trouble down the road.
    15'x48" 4500 gallon Intex pool, buried 1.5 ft. Pac-Fab Dynamo 3/4 hp pump. Hayward S180T sand filter, bought used. Taylor K-2006 test kit. Rocket mass heater based wood fired pool heater.

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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    tamc93 Are those chickens in the background?
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    Re: Plumbing and Paver Patio

    As much as this doesn't look right and it looks like a builder issue, I would think this would be a code issue. Builders must build to code (assuming permit pulled for the job) If the city inspector passes off on the work then the builder must have built to current building codes (or builder paid off the inspector ). If the inspector passes off on the work then any additional work to bury the pipe deeper would be extra work that you would have to pay for which in this case may be worth it depending upon the amount you have to pay for the additional labor in trenching and re-pipe. Sure would make me feel better about a paver install, which the quality of the paver install would be contingent upon the quality of base it's installed on.
    15'x35' IG 16,500 gallons w/attached raised 18" spa continuous coping w/underneath spill and ledger stone wrapped, NPT mini pebble aqua blue w/2x pigment & abalone shell finish, 2"x24" travertine coping, 3x Jandy Color LED lights (2 in pool), Jandy Flo Pro 2HP VS pump, Jandy LXI (low NOx) 400K BTU heater, Jandy CL460 cartridge filter, Jandy AquaPure Ei SWG, Jandy Z4 automation with iAqualink and remote poolside PDA, 1,300 sqft Belgard Catalina paver deck with drainage, fire pit that matches the spa with travertine coping and wrapped in ledger stone, Elitewood insulated patio cover, Vinyl gates, back vinyl fence coming soon...
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