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Thread: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

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    Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    I added borates to my pool about 3 weeks ago (via Borax and Acid). The process went fine, and I adjusted the PH after it was complete. I love the results. However, ever since then it seems my PH is usually higher now than before the addition of borates. By that I mean, when I test the PH every couple days, it seems like it's always up around 7.8-8. So I add some acid bring it to to 7.6. Before the borates, I very rarely had to add acid to adjust the PH.

    Could this be related to borates? Or is it just a coincidence and really caused by rain or something else?
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    tcat's Avatar
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    Re: So you want to add borates to your pool--Why and How

    That's what happens to me when I add borates. Just finished adding to 50 2 days ago, just lowered pH to 7.6, waiting too see i it will stay (I doubt it). Mine always seemed to settle at 7.8.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsf4726
    I added borates to my pool about 3 weeks ago (via Borax and Acid). The process went fine, and I adjusted the PH after it was complete. I love the results. However, ever since then it seems my PH is usually higher now than before the addition of borates. By that I mean, when I test the PH every couple days, it seems like it's always up around 7.8-8. So I add some acid bring it to to 7.6. Before the borates, I very rarely had to add acid to adjust the PH.

    Could this be related to borates? Or is it just a coincidence and really caused by rain or something else?
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    Do you know what your TA was when you added? You may not have lowered them enough. Common mistake, important step.
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    Also, with borates some find letting TA go down as far as 50 ppm stabilizes things. Post your current TA level.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    Appreciate the replies!

    I'm positive my TA was in the 70-80 range when I added. That's because it was stable at that level the many weeks before adding borates, with weekly testing.

    However, I missed my last full weekly testing, so I actually don't know what the TA after borates. I'll do some testing/experimenting with TA to see if I can stabilize things a bit more.

    Thanks again!
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    Ok, so what is it now as Dave asked? And do you have a Salt Water Chlorine generator or water features, spill over spa? These will speed pH rise through aeration.
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    Just came inside from testing, and TA is a solid 80. And PH was once again up around 8.0 (somewhere between the 7.8 and 8.2 colors) after adjustment to 7.6 almost 3 days ago. I hear that kind of PH adjustment isn't all that uncommon. It's just that it isn't what I was used to before. I think I will play around with lowering the TA to see if that helps a bit.

    Oh and here's the full test results.

    FC 3
    CC 0
    CYA 35
    TA 80
    CH 250
    Salt 1350
    Borates 40
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    linen's Avatar
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    It should, I would shoot for getting it down to 50-60 ppm and see how that impacts ph stability.

    Out of curiosity, what are you typically using to chlorinate with (brand and percentage)?
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    It's called Aqua Chem Liquid Chlorinizor. It lists:

    Sodium Hypochlorite 10%
    Other Ingredients 90%
    Available Chlorine 11%

    I've been using 11% in my calculations.
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    The poolcalculator.com uses the percentage by weight, which should be 10% for the stuff you bought.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    I just wanted to chime in and echo what others are saying. I too noticed I needed to adjust pH with muriatic acid much more frequently after adding borates.

    My initial TA was 120 when I first added boric acid, which was as low as I could get it through aeration. I found that I needed to adjust pH nearly every day, as it was rising to 7.8+.

    Two months later, I find I only need to adjust pH with acid every 3 days. I checked my TA last week, and it's now down to 70.
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    One other potential complication is make up water. If you are having to add a lot and if the fill water is high in TA and ph, that can cause the issue. The can/will be aggravated by leaks, higher evaporation rates, and excessive splash-out.
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    Really appreciate the feedback everyone!

    Sounds like a lower TA is the way to go.

    Good tip about the fill water, linen. Though, with all the rain we're having, it's everything I can do just to keep the level low enough. And the first thought was the rain causing the PH rise. However, it was raining just as much before adding borates, plus the pool is in a screen cage, so it seems it would lessen the aeration caused by rains.
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    Quote Originally Posted by gsf4726
    It's called Aqua Chem Liquid Chlorinizor. It lists:

    Sodium Hypochlorite 10%
    Other Ingredients 90%
    Available Chlorine 11%

    I've been using 11% in my calculations.
    That does not sound right to me. Available Chlorine is usually a less percentage than the chlorine chemical (Sodium Hypochlorite). I would think the available chlorine would be somewhere between 8% and 9% if it was indeed 10%.

    I cant even find the Liquid Chlorinizer on Aqua Chems website. It does appear to exist here though: http://www.socialgrocery.com/products/A ... hlorinizer . That does not look like an Aqua Chem product of todays pakaging. If you look here it was produced but has some older dates listed: http://apps.cdpr.ca.gov/cgi-bin/label/l ... veonly=off

    Where did you buy that from and how long have you had it?
    Does it have any numbers on it like the page lists? Like 84517- 3-AA
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    The links you provided are not the product I'm using. I didn't get too many hits online, but this site lists some basic info about it (it's the 3rd one down, part # 3004):

    http://www.sunbeltchemicals.com/deta...elt_brands.php

    It's all over the place around me. I usually pick it up at my local grocery store. Also have gotten it at wal-mart. There are usually multiple shelves of it, so I don't believe it's old or leftovers. So, I think it's legit, but it does sound like I should use 10% in my calculations.

    Edit: On second look, the first link you provided *could* be the same product I'm using, as it looks like a box that includes 2 1-gallon bottles.
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    Here is the MSDS, it lists it as 10%: http://www.kellysolutions.com/erenew...9_54_44_AM.pdf
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    Quote Originally Posted by gsf4726
    The links you provided are not the product I'm using. I didn't get too many hits online, but this site lists some basic info about it (it's the 3rd one down, part # 3004):

    http://www.sunbeltchemicals.com/deta...elt_brands.php

    It's all over the place around me. I usually pick it up at my local grocery store. Also have gotten it at wal-mart. There are usually multiple shelves of it, so I don't believe it's old or leftovers. So, I think it's legit, but it does sound like I should use 10% in my calculations.

    Edit: On second look, the first link you provided *could* be the same product I'm using, as it looks like a box that includes 2 1-gallon bottles.
    The photo in the link you provided looks like it could be an aqua chem product packaging, but its strange they dont have it on their website and that its on a Sunbelt Chemicals website. Maybe they just subcontract it out or something. Walmart does not carry that here at any stores around me, but they do carry other aqua chem stuff. Thats the reason your post caught my eye.

    Yes you should use 10% in your calculations. How much does the Liquid Chlorinizer cost? Have you figured up the cost difference between that and the Great Value 8.25% bleach. The GV bleach here is $2.98 for 121oz.
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    It's 3.97 at walmart 121oz, which comes out less than a cent better than the GV 8.25% to raise one FC part in my pool. But that was my calculations at 11%. At 10, it's probably slightly better for the 8.25%. Though, it's so close, I'll probably continue to get what's convenient.
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    Your getting 1.75% more chlorine with the aqua chem so you should be paying less than 1.75% increase over the price of the bleach since they are both the same size (121oz).
    If the GV bleach is $2.98, then multiply that by 1.0175 to get the price of the aqua chem that would be an equal price. You get $3.03. If the aqua chem is more than $3.03 then its a worse value, if its less than $3.03 then its a better value.
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    Re: Since borates it seems my PH is usually higher

    Quote Originally Posted by easttn
    Your getting 1.75% more chlorine with the aqua chem so you should be paying less than 1.75% increase over the price of the bleach since they are both the same size (121oz).
    If the GV bleach is $2.98, then multiply that by 1.0175 to get the price of the aqua chem that would be an equal price. You get $3.03. If the aqua chem is more than $3.03 then its a worse value, if its less than $3.03 then its a better value.
    I think you made an error. Assuming both brands are the same volume, then 10/8.25= 1.21 (you get 21% more chlorine) so 2.98X1.21 = $3.61 (if aqua chem is more than this it a better value to buy the great value)
    TFP Expert who uses Pool School and my TF100 test kit along with PoolMath for my: Round 11K gallon AGP with deep end, 20" sand filter, Matrix 1hp 2spd, 6 2ftX20ft solar panels (and solar cover!), Intex SWCG (copper bars disconnected) and a Rubadub hot tub (chlorine). The SLAM process is not finished until: 1. CC < 0.5 ppm, 2. An OCLT < 1.0 ppm and, 3. The water is crystal clear.

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