Paramount MDX R3 Bottom Drain

[DOMO]

Hi all, We have a Paramount MDX R3 bottom drain (with an SDX wall safety drain), but I get the feeling not much is being collected via the bottom drain. The deck side debris canister does collect debris (dog hair, leaves, dirt, etc.), but not a lot, and I get the feeling that this is being collected via the 2" side wall port that feeds into the canister (as that is where most of the draw seems to be coming from). A lot of debris collects right near the MDX R3 on the bottom and never appears to be sucked into the drain. There is no feeling of suction at the drain, which I have heard may be normal, but if you look at the video on Paramount's site, it shows a good flow of leaves being sucked into the bottom drain. I dove down and took a look into the bottom drain this weekend, and I could see a lot of debris (pine needles and such) sitting at the bottom of the drain (before the elbow). I assume this should be free and clear of all debris if suction is good and it's working properly, yes? Is it possible the pipe that leads from the MDX R3 to the debris canister is clogged? Thanks!

 

[RIRSZ]

I have the same system as you do, and experienced the same problem. You can read my post below...

in-floor-cleaning-system-t66622.html

I ended up removing the Fused Lid that fits over the basket and replacing it with the following.

A new canister lid (had to enlarge the slots by cutting them)
http://www.poolpartsonline.com/p-64608- ... clear.aspx

A lid gasket
http://www.poolpartsonline.com/p-77621- ... ister.aspx

These parts stopped the water from entering through the side port and created a little more suction at the bottom.

Before doing this, you should make sure you get all the lines blown out (sometimes construction debris can clog the system).
My equipment allows me to turn the skimmers off, forcing more suction through the main drain. If you can, try this.

If you do decide to replace the fuse, please realize that you are removing a safety mechanism and understand that the drain may not release as it was designed to do.

While all these changes helped, I still do not feel any great suction at the drain. The system does work, you just have to give it time.

 

[DOMO]

Hi. Thanks for the reply. Just read your post. I have a VERY similar experience re: the PB's promises, but our experience is different in that our system does NOT keep the pool clean and we had to buy a robot. Not sure what you mean by the 'Fused Lid', but when I looked at the 2 links for the new canister lid and gasket, that's what we have on the system already. We had the lines blown out at closing last year, and I know that included the debris canister, but I am thinking that was the line from the canister back to the pump/filter. My guess is that did not include the line from the bottom drain to the debris canister, so it is possible that there is construction debris in there, especially when you consider how much mortar fell into the pool when they were instaling the paver coping. How do I go about blowing out that line? I am planning on diverting the flow tonight by shutting off the skimmer line. Would hope that this would fill up the debris canister basket if there is anything sitting in the line, yes?

 

[RIRSZ]

My original lid looked like the attachment below.
[attachment=1:9noow3b4]mvfuse.JPG[/attachment:9noow3b4]

My problem was that the lid was letting in water.
I tested this by putting my hand over the side port in my pool and watching the water level lower where the lid is. After replacing the lid with the one I ordered and adding a gasket, the canister was completely sealed and only pulled water from the drain and not the side port.

To verify if you have a clog between your drain and the canister, take the lid off and cover the inlet pipe from the drain with your hand (red circle below). The water in the basket will drop, when it gets halfway down remove your hand and you should have a decent flow of water coming through the inlet (this is caused by the water pressure in the pool). If no water comes through the pipe then you most likely have a clog. I had my PB unclog the pipe for me, but I have heard of people using a garden hose wrapped in a towel. Maybe someone who has done this will chime in later on.

Good luck, I know it's frustrating but keep with it and you will get it working. Sorry to hear that you had to buy a robot, once the system is running you will not need it anymore.

[attachment=0:9noow3b4]canister.JPG[/attachment:9noow3b4]

 

[DOMO]

Hi. Thanks for the additional info. Will give those tests a try. That's definitely not the lid we have, but I can understand why that would cause a problem. Not sure I follow the garden hose wrapped in a towel piece, but I will leave any unclogging to a professional. Yes, it was very disappointing to have to spend the money on a robot and deal with that all the time. PB said "you will never have to vaccuum this pool" but he never installed floor jets (said we didn't need them!), which we came to find out later that we DID! And therefore, the system does not clean the pool at all. Extremely frustrating, but not even close to the worst parts of the installation (more on that to come later in another post). So, basically, this system will never clean the pool and we will always need to a robot / vaccuum. :grrrr:

 

[RIRSZ]

No floor Jets?!?! I would want to kill that guy... The good news is that once you get the drai working you can sweep all the debris to the drain and let it suck everything up.

 

[DOMO]

oh believe me, you don't know how bad this really is! the floor jet thing is actually small potatoes compared to the rest of it. stay tuned for my detailed post on our experience. re: sweeping to the drain, that's what i'm hoping as that would help instead of dropping in the robot all the time! thanks.

 

[DOMO]

Hi. So, I did some testing tonight. I turned off the skimmer line and diverted everything to the bottom drain. From what I can see, there is obviously a main bottom drain from the debris canister that runs back to the filter, and it looks as though there is another line that runs back to the filter as well, but there was not much draw there. There appeared to be 2 main lines coming into the canister, 1 had the majority of the draw and fed directly into the canister (under the lid). The other was outside the lid, so it appears to bring water in over the lid. From what I can tell, it appears the first one is from the bottom drain and the 2nd from the open port in the wall (but not the SDX). If I close off the open port on the wall, there is good flow into the canister, which I assume is from the bottom drain, but can it be from the SDX? Even with the line diverted to the bottom drain and the wall port closed off, it appeared to have good flow into the canister, but i tried brushing some dirt around near the drain and nothing got pulled in (certainly no where near what the Paramount videos show). What am I missing here? :?:

 

[RIRSZ]

1. One of the bottom feeds in the canister runs to the filter, the other should just be capped.
2. The water that flows in Over the canister is supposed to help create a seal. Once the lid is submerged, water should not be drawn through this hole (very important).
3. Based on what you've told me about your PB, I'm not sure how to answer your question on whether the water is flowing from the drain or the SDX. If it's plumbed correctly and not blocked, the flow should be coming from the drain. If your PB blows out the line from the canister to the drain, it should clear both the drain and SDX.
4: My problem was that when I had the lid on I would still draw water through the side port, that's why I bought the new lid and gasket. If your pulling water through the side port, then you should verify that the lid and gasket are tightly sealed. If you can't get a tight seal then you are always going to lose suction at the drain.

 

[DOMO]

Hi again.
1. Yes, I believe that's correct.
2. I assumed that, however, I am trying to recall if that is the case. The lid feels as though it locks in, but I believe that line from the side port feeds water in until the chamber (above the lid) fills up, does that sound correct?
3. I've attached a picture that I took when they were plumbing and I've marked it up. It appears the main flow that I saw last night is coming in from the SDX and what appears to be the main bottom drain line (which is just barely visible to the left of the canister in the pic). That said, if the bottom drain line is clogged with construction debris and other stuff, the SDX would provide all the flow, yes?
Unfortunately, we can't contact the PB to address this, or any other concern, as we only communicate via our attorneys at this point (based on past experience, I highly doubt they would help anyway).
Thanks again for your help!

 

[RIRSZ]

Based on the installation instructions I've read (I've attached a link below), It looks like he plumbed it incorrectly. The Main Drain should feed directly to the canister, and the sdx should feed from the main drain.

Pages 3 and 4 show how the plumbing should be laid out. Unfortunately I'm not sure how the SDX handles being hooked directly to the canister.

I'm not sure what State you live in, but I know where I live there are pretty specific laws about main drains and safety features. If he didn't plumb the SDX correctly, it may not trip properly. Perhaps another question for your attorney?

http://www.askme-marketing.com/Images/PDFs/MDX0461.pdf

 

[DOMO]

hey. so, it would NOT surprise me in the least if this was plumbed incorrectly, and therefore 1. it doesn't function right and 2. is not up to code/is a safety issue. that said, i have read the same as you re: the MDX main drain going directly to the canister and the SDX tying into/off of that line. i have attached a revised version of the picture. It appears the MDX which comes out from the bottom then T's up and runs to the canister. The SDX appears to be T'd off of that 'up' line just before it reaches the canister. All of that is a little tricky to see in this picture's angle, but if that were true, is it plumbed right or wrong?

 

[RIRSZ]

In my personal opinion, it looks wrong. The instructions clearly show the SDX coming off the MDX. There are a couple of illustrations with a second SDX piped in directly to the return, but in each example there is an SDX piped through the MDX. I personally think you should contact Paramount (the manufacturer) and tell them you have a safety concern. They will be able to tell you for sure if this is plumbed safely or not.

 

[DOMO]

Hi George, I totally hear what you're saying looking at the install instructions (thanks for that, by the way), but if you look at the drawing on Paramount's site (link below) it looks like the SDX line is "T'd" off of the line from the MDX, so wondering if/how that's different from my set up. That said, it's a cartoon drawing and what do I know?? I've sent a request in to Paramount with my plumbing installation picture and explained my concerns. I'll let you know what I hear from them. Thanks again!

http://www.paramountpoolproducts.com/products/mdxr3/

 

[RIRSZ]

Looks like I was wrong, you can have a T connection between the MDX and SDX. Sorry for the mis-information.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqoek3zKxoY

 

[DOMO]

OK, will take a look (and no worries). If that's true, and not the cause of the issues, then I'm back to square one to figure out why we have no draw from the MDX R3. Curious to see what Parmount says.

 

[RIRSZ]

Me too, please keep me updated.

 

[DOMO]

Hi. Sorry for the delayed reply, been having many emails with Paramount. First off, they have been very responsive and helpful. It appears that my installer did not plumb the system per Paramount's recommended method. Upon their recommendation, I diverted all draw to the pump from the MDX/SDX system, and placed a plastic bag over the SDX to essentially block that flow. The improvement in flow from the MDX to the canister was minimal at best. I literally placed various sized leafs near the MDX and in front of it, and they just floated away, only when I placed them into the mouth of the MDX did they go into the drain. I can still see debris at the bottom of the MDX which when the full draw was applied did not get sucked into the canister.

Paramount's reocommended approach to correct this is to replumb the SDX line with several 90 degree elbows and move those further away from the MDX drain line. This would require ripping up a considerable amount of pavers and moving boulders, not exactly feasible, and even if I did that, the length of run of the SDX line is still not as long as Paramount recommends in order to operate properly (no way to correct that). In short, I have a bottom drain (that is inconvenient in our 5.5' deep end) and much worse, this complex system of wall jets, bottom drains, canisters, etc. that doesn't work to collect debris due to lack of floor jets, incorrect plumbing, etc, etc. And the hits just keep on coming! :grrrr:

 

[RIRSZ]

Wow, that is terrible news. I wonder if you can just cap off the SDX completely, cut it right at the T-connection and cap both ends at those red marks.

[attachment=0:1turgapz]sdx.JPG[/attachment:1turgapz]
You may be able to dig in from the side and not disturb too many pavers.

I'm sure Paramount wouldn't endorse it, but it would mean that the entire flow would go to the MDX.

I also think you have a leak in your debris canister. You said earlier that you are pulling water from the side port, if the lid is sealed correctly, you should not pull any water from this side port.

Hopefully your attorney will use the correspondence from Paramount in your favor.

 

[DOMO]

Yes, indeed, it IS terrible news. Pulling up the pavers (and moving a few boulders) to re-plumb just isn't in the cards. I would be ok with all of the flow coming all from the MDX (although my test concluded that even that didnt help much), but don't I need the SDX as a safety device?
I will re-check the side drain line, but I believe that pulls in water when I remove the lid and it fills the canister's chamber with water over the lid when the lid is on (will get back to you on that).
Bottom line is, it's just done wrong and doesn't work, so yet another pool disappointment for us.