terryc said:
I get my information from the Internet so it has to be true.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthings ... xworks.htm
You cannot believe everything you read on the Internet, even if it is written by a Ph.D. The author is mixing up sodium perborate, which is an oxidizing chemical with an active peroxy group (double oxygen -O-O-), with borax (sodium tetraborate decahydrate) which is not an oxidizing compound and has no peroxy groups (it has only single oxygen -O- groups). You can see more about sodium perborate in
this link where you can see it produces hydrogen peroxide in water. In fact, sodium perborate can be created by mixing Borax with hydrogen peroxide and sodium hydroxide. It's a simple mistake to mix up these two compounds since sodium perborate is used in some detergents while borax is used in others, but they are really two very different compounds in terms of oxidizing/bleaching capabilities. The only bleaching capability from borax is in the already mentioned attachment of boric acid to cis-hydroxyl groups of organic compounds if such compounds contribute to color.
terryc said:
Borax does raise TA according to chem geek.
50 ppm Borates only raises the TA by about 5 ppm at pH 7.5 or 10 ppm at pH 8.0, but this rise in TA has zero rise in carbonate alkalinity which is what matters for carbon dioxide outgassing. In other words, the borates provide additional pH buffering without contributing to carbon dioxide outgassing. Also, this pH buffering is mostly against a rise in pH (i.e. the buffer gets stronger as the pH rises) as opposed to the carbonate alkalinity which gets stronger as the pH gets lower. See the thread
pH Buffer Capacity for more info on these effects. The reason the borates don't raise TA very much is that they remain mostly as boric acid at pool pH. Only the borate ion portion is measured in the TA test. For measuring the buffering against a rise in pH instead of a drop which TA does, one would need to measure Total Acidity instead of Total Alkalinity, but we don't have such tests and really don't need them since simply knowing the borate level (measures all boric acid and borate ion) is sufficient.
terryc said:
There are loads of articles about borax/borates/boric acid which are all basically the same as a natural cleaner/sanitizer so it does do something. I'm just trying to stay informed from multiple sources. It is not equivalent to phosphate remover/copper etc for one because it is a lot less expensive.
Borates do not interact with chlorine at all. There is no newly formed disinfecting compound when you mix the two together. Any analysis of the borates with regard to disinfection has to look at it on its own as boric acid or borate ion which are the chemical species found in water with 50 ppm borates. I already linked you to the table that shows that at 50 ppm it is only a mild algaecide. "Mild" does not mean ineffective. If you do not have algae in your pool with borates in it, try adding some fertilizer (phosphates and nitrates) and see what happens with no chlorine in the pool. Your pool may be somewhat low in algae nutrients so the borates are able to hold off the algae more than in a pool rich in algae nutrients. I'm not saying that borates don't take the edge off of algae growth nor that using higher levels (beyond the EPA limit) wouldn't be even more effective, just that they aren't a panacea. We have quite a few pools now with SWGs that are using 50 ppm Borates and if chlorine goes to zero some still get algae.
That same table also showed that the borates were even less effective against bacteria so would in no way be considered to be a disinfectant. So at best, look at borates as a mild algaecide, but not as a disinfectant.
The sources you are looking at tend to mix up borax with perborate. The latter is an oxidizer and disinfectant since it produces hydrogen peroxide while the former (Borax) is not. That is a fact no matter how many incorrect sources you may find. Try searching scientific peer-reviewed papers in respected journals or pull out your old chemistry books and look at the chemical structure of tetraborate vs. perborate to see the difference. Borax as a cleaner would be similar to using any other weak base as a cleaner such as sodium carbonate (soda ash).
This link that refers to "sanitation" in two places is marketing deceit based on cleaning surfaces thereby making them more sanitary since they no longer contain the grime and grease "food" for bacteria. That is not at all the same as killing the bacteria themselves and washing with soap and water would be at least as good if not better.
This link is more accurate. The CDC also sums up the question of Borax and disinfection nicely in
this link:
Some environmental groups advocate "environmentally safe" products as alternatives to commercial germicides in the home-care setting. These alternatives (e.g., ammonia, baking soda, vinegar, Borax, liquid detergent) are not registered with EPA and should not be used for disinfecting because they are ineffective against S. aureus. Borax, baking soda, and detergents also are ineffective against Salmonella Typhi and E.coli; however, undiluted vinegar and ammonia are effective against S. Typhi and E.coli. Common commercial disinfectants designed for home use also are effective against selected antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
You cannot compare the number of Internet sources with veracity or truth. Quantity is not the same as quality.
terryc said:
You guys act like it is some kind of rocket science to know that putting a boat load of chlorine in a pool will sanitize it. Don't really know why everyone is getting so defensive just cause you don't understand how borates at 50 ppm interacts with chlorine for sanitization. Seems like if you did prescribe to your BBB method of knowing and understanding pool chemistry you might want to know. That is all I'm doing.
Again I'd like to see what chemgeeks studies would have shown using borate with small amounts of chlorine.
What are you talking about? "a boat load of chlorine?" Are you referring to the higher FC levels? If you understand the chlorine/CYA relationship as described in this 1974 paper you would see that an FC that is 10% of the CYA level has roughly the same active chlorine (hypochlorous acid) level as around 0.1 ppm FC with no CYA. Our minimum FC/CYA ratio recommendations are roughly equivalent to 0.07 ppm with no CYA in active chlorine level. What "boat load of chlorine" are you referring to? FC alone means nothing except telling you the reserve/reservoir amount of chlorine so that you do not run out. It does not tell you the active level of chlorine. If you want to calculate the active level of chlorine more accurately by simultaneously solving the 13 chemical equilibrium equations, then use my spreadsheet.
It isn't rocket science, but the pool industry does not disclose how their recommended levels of FC (usually 1-3 ppm) with their recommended levels of CYA (high CYA levels don't matter; only FC matters; 100 ppm is just fine; 60-80 ppm CYA for SWG pools, etc.) will allow algae to grow faster than chlorine can kill it if algae nutrients are present. So 3 ppm FC with 30 ppm CYA is perfectly fine for preventing green and black algae growth, but that same 3 ppm FC with 80 ppm CYA is not. I didn't think that was particularly obvious since the algae inhibition level for chlorine isn't specifically published.
It sounds like what you want to know is the algae inhibition level for chlorine (with ample algae nutrients present) when one is using 50 ppm Borates. We don't have that information, but as I wrote, we know that it's not absolute inhibition since SWG pools with 50 ppm Borates still get algae if the chlorine level gets to zero. We also don't know the algae inhibition rate for Polyquat 60 dosed weekly, but from my own experience in my own pool 10 years ago I can estimate that it would let one lower the FC/CYA ratio to at least half or somewhat less (but probably not less than 1/3rd) the minimum in the chlorine/CYA chart. I suspect that with borates being a weaker algaecide (at 50 ppm) that one couldn't reliably go to half the minimum in the chart, but we really don't know.
As I wrote earlier, we don't bother trying to figure out the different minimum FC/CYA level for optional additions to the pool, be it 50 ppm Borates or Polyquat 60. These are extra cost products that are not necessary to prevent algae growth. One might save some money in chlorine dosing, but would probably not save money when accounting for the extra cost for the algaecide. Instead, such products are seen for their other benefits or as insurance if one gets lax with chlorine dosing. I have, on occasion, recommended the use of weekly Polyquat 60 for those people who absolutely want the lowest chlorine level in their pool and do not mind paying more for that result. That's a personal choice, but not a standard recommendation. The Polyquat 60 is a stronger algaecide that is also a clarifier.
Butterfly
. Just added some chlorine since it was reading 1 ppm or less and adjusted the PH. There are loads of articles about borax/borates/boric acid which are all basically the same as a natural cleaner/sanitizer so it does do something. I'm just trying to stay informed from multiple sources. It is not equivalent to phosphate remover/copper etc for one because it is a lot less expensive. 